Raindawg

RUMR say: Dude...leave your worn-out, childish "poop and dwanus" routine for spray. This has turned out to be a remarkably civil expression of views so how about keeping it above the spray-level? You're right: Speaking for myself (pope can speak for himself), I don't care about the "envelope" and I would "prefer that the envelope stay stationary to having the experience and mini environment around the crag degraded..." I'll take it one step further: as a climber myself, I wouldn't mind if certain areas were shut down to climbing if climbers can't restrain themselves from rampant permanent alteration of the environment. "G-spotter" say: Save the "has-been" pseudo-psychological speculation for the spray-pile. Do you really think that's what motivates my perspectives? You don't have a clue. Some of us actually care about the environment and are embarrassed by some of the trends of modern climbing.

VW4EVER SAY: Therefore?????? They must be right and I'm wrong? No. I like the Smith Rocks. It's a beautiful place, and it was even prettier before it became a bolted circus with its crowd-attracting metallic highways. Smith Rock, sad to say, was an incubator for the continent-wide abuse that followed. No one's opinion is being denied here. In fact, it's to cc.com's credit that they aren't shutting me down, which has happened several times in the past on just such topics. There are thousands of issues to be involved with, and I have my own causes, and if you are a climber, you should be concerned with related issues, and this is one of them. If you've read the discussion up to this point, you may have noticed many people trying to smokescreen or trivialize the issue by pointing to issues of relative scale. Sure, it's not on the scale of global warming, genocide in Africa or the tearing up of mountainsides for ski areas, but if YOU are a climber, the impact of YOUR behavior in the environment of YOUR recreation should be of PERSONAL concern, no matter how small. You could bitch about a pile of beer cans left by hikers on the side of the trail, but at least the cans can be picked up and removed. Bolts are PERMANENT alterations, and like chipping holds, might at best be restored after chopping/mending. Think about what you're doing before you place or clip that bolt. Are you contributing to, or endorsing, this sort of alteration? And then there are those who say, "Get over it...it's here to stay." Not necessarily. Rampant bolt-use IS being curtailed here and there and hopefully this will become widespread. My prediction for the future: sport-climbing will be seen by future generations as a selfish, careless, gratuitous degradation of the rock environment. Its stylistic practices (e.g. siege-climbing until unlimited rehearsals provide the desired result) might also be looked down upon with disdain. In the future, I'd hope to see widespread restoration programs to erase and repair the ugly deeds of the last 20 years and hopefully, there will be new kinds of gear that will render bolts obsolete, so there will be no more justification for rampant drilling. And another thing....all this talk about how useful sport-climbing is in upping the difficulty standards of trad-climbing or rock climbing in general: Clipping bolts to improve your trad climbing???? My opinion: the end doesn't justify the means. Better the numbers stayed lower than contribute to the mess. (And although I've for the most part stayed away from the dubious stylistic aspects of sport-climbing, consider how most of those "cutting edge" climbs are being "accomplished": days, if not weeks, of siege climbing.) There are other ways to get stronger than clipping bolts....try doing it the old-fashion way...push your limits on trad-climbs or with a top-rope. Or, try working out in a climbing gym....unappealing to me:sick:....but there's plenty of them out there! And one more thing: another common theme thrown out here is the worn cliché, "it's all good!". My response...."no it ain't".

Wow. Could somebody please go chop that webbing and add some bolts As I noted earlier, I believe bolts have a very LIMITED place in the climbing environment. Exceptions would include fixed rappel/belay anchors as a compromise to messes such as the above. In short, bolts should be VERY RARE and SAFE. Sport-climbing is by definition BOLT-DEPENDENT and therefore perpetually requires the permanent alteration of rock environment, thus violating the "leave little trace" ethic.

I disagree. It's not their size or visual appearance, it's whether we have the right to permanently alter the climbing environment. Whether its bolts or chipping holds, you're still leaving a mess in your wake.

The "cliff-climber" who wrote that doesn't apparently get out much and seems unaware of the vast numbers of lines composed of closely-spaced bolts on faces and occasionally adjacent to "faults and cracks". And where did he come up with the "1 percent" number???

Mr. Moore say: Nice of you to recognize the need to be "corrected" and thanks for putting us minorities back into our place. Yazz boss! So, you've got the take on the majority, eh? So, we're supposed to shut up because you feel we're wasting our time, eh? So, if it falls on deaf ears, are you suggesting that the "majority" is sufficiently close-minded as to not to consider the alternatives? There are more of us out here than you think, and we're not leaving town. Get used to it.

Nice, thoughtful post, Dechristo. A few comments: Sport-climbing as a negative environmental impact? Absolutely. And I'm glad to see that places like Joshua Tree National Park have taken a stance on limiting it. As far as introducing tens of thousands of participants... Sport-climbing, with its very shallow learning curve, has resulted in lots of crowded crags, and the proliferation of more bolted lines. Personally, I don't think climbers have the right to permanently alter public lands and should be denied access if they can't climb "clean". Gee whiz, apart from the noise and the occasional tossed beer can, snowmobilers (who engage in a "sport" I absolutely can't relate to) leave less of an impact! RE: clean-ups and humanitarian efforts...that's all great, but that should be going on anyway. You want to clean up the mountains? We can start in our own backyard with Mt. Garfield. I'd rather have clean mountains than most of the so-called benefits you described. A "leave little trace" ethic should apply to all those who use the outdoors, no matter how visible to the outside world. (Yes, even Nordic walkers). And as far as the ship analogy goes....the ship went off course, back in the '80's as it pulled into port at the Smith Rocks...it's time for old-school navigators such as myself and pope to try to set things straight, at least by expressing our perspectives. The widespread embracing of sport-climbing, in my opinion, was a form of devolution, and its course can be corrected. carry on, sailor.

Probably not, smart-alec. As Pope said, the impact doesn't compare to that of an oil spill, but, it is a serious concern if you address it as a "leave no trace" issue. Backpackers had it figured out decades ago: you do your outdoor thing and you don't leave a mess. You don't enhance campsites, build fires anywhere you please, chop down trees, whatever...you strive to leave it natural for the next folk and generations to come. A wonderful spark toward this notion in rock-climbing appeared in the 1970's when the notion of "clean-climbing" was promoted. Sport-climbers don't seem to understand this concept: they leave their crappy little "creations" everywhere: lines of bolts permanently installed on the rock. What happened at Smith Rocks in the '80's would effectively put the clean-climbing revolution in the back seat, in preference to the easier gratification offered by sport-climbing. Here are a couple of examples often used to illustrate some of the issues: 1) Apart from Smith, which has many great trad lines established well before the '80's, Vantage is a poster child for sporty abuse. With cracks for clean protection found everywhere, there is little excuse for the amazing proliferation of bolted routes found everywhere there. And even so, there are few routes there that can't be top-roped, thus avoiding the need to place the extensive lines of bolts. By the way, I think there is a place for bolts...a VERY LIMITED place...for example, fixed rap/belay anchors as a compromise to people leaving tons of crap at such places, or as top-rope anchors for short climbs in order to protect the rock from sport-bolting, YET EVERY SINGLE BOLT PLACED SHOULD BE CAREFULLY CONSIDERED AS AN ETHICS ISSUE IN THAT EACH BOLT IS A PERMANENT ALTERATION TO THE ENVIRONMENT. The reality of sport climbing is that it is utterly bolt-dependent with seemingly little concern for its impact. I would venture to say that few sport climbers have any inkling that bolts might be considered an ethical and environmental issue. And by the way,....the argument that "Smith Rocks", "Vantage", "Exit 38" are only "choss" and therefore exempt from ethical concerns (i.e., sacrificed to sport-bolting), is ridiculous. Folks were climbing there before the metallic onslaught and there are plenty of other places to climb if one finds those areas unacceptable. 2) Second, example: Castle Rock in Leavenworth: I first climbed there 30 years ago...and it remains pretty much the same now (although there were some questionable bolted sporty routes added in '80's.) The clean-climbing ethic has left the place more or less intact for at least one generation. (And don't bring up Beckey chopping down trees on Logger's Ledge in the 60's or whenever...that was wrong too.) When some sporto's decided to retrobolt a bold seldomly climbed route a few years ago (Dan's Dreadful Direct)it was chopped shortly thereafter...for environmental and stylistic reasons: this area was not to be subjected to lines of bolts, and the route could be climbed clean and trad by those bold enough to do it....and by the way, it can also be climbed on top-rope without leaving a mess. Yah, it ain't an oil spill, but that pimple on the elephant's butt statement can be used as a smoke-screen to excuse all kinds of behavior. You can cite anything on a larger scale (ski areas, freeways, whatever) in an attempt to make the issue seem trivial, BUT YOU ARE A CLIMBER, AND IN YOUR OWN LITTLE CLIMBING WORLD, YOU SHOULD BE ETHICALLY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS THERE. No, style is a different issue, second to environmental concerns. I personally think that sport-climbing tactics are weak: hangdogging a route into submission, red point/pink point nonsense, rap-bolting, etc. But folks have the right to be weak, as long as they don't tread on other people's experience (such as drilling lines of permanent anchors.) Hey Pop-Psychologist/Amazing Kreskin....your abilities to assess motivations is indeed questionable.."Anybody who..." Come on....where'd you come up with that baloney. You REALLY don't know, pal. And by the way, rock vs. classical music ain't the same choice as leaving the rock clean for others to enjoy vs. leaving a permanent mess. Hypocricy has nothing to do with it. By your standards (to use an extreme example), we should tell them "Scared Straight" convicts to quit preaching to kids about not doing crime because they themselves are criminials, or that the crack addict down the street should quit whining about how he ruined his life. Bringing up the hypocricy thing is just another way to kill the discussion....it's not relevant. If someone wants to clip bolts and still thinks the concept stinks....that's their personal issue to struggle with.

In my opinion, what happened at Smith Rock, and it's widespread aftermath, is a tragedy. I, for one, was around to see it unfold. If I felt there was something new to be learned about this shameful era, I'd be more compelled to attend, but if it's "funny lycra and mullets" and "bold clip-ups": been there, seen that. Maybe someone who has the time and energy can post a review that we can all consider.

Pope's a VERY thoughtful guy which you would realize if you actually knew the guy. It's only spray because you apparently disagree with his perspective. You want sunshine blown up your kiester about your beloved sport? Keep your head in the sand and pretend there is a consensus that it's all good. Reality: it ain't all good, and the number of dissenters is growing. My opinion: sport-climbing is an environmental and stylistic embarrassment that future generations may very well see as a dark, selfish, ignorant age in the history of climbing.

So what? Loads of routes at Smith. I, myself, climbed there plenty before it became sport-raped. This ain't a hypocricy debate. Pope could have climbed 1,000 sport routes and still maintain his opinion. You clearly don't understand the issues surrounding sport climbing. There are profound stylistic issues, but more importantly, there are environmental issues, such as leaving a permanent trail in your wake. Stoppers, tied knots, modern ropes, and most rock shoes don't leave much impact. No one is banning anything. There needs to be a change in the awareness of what sport climbing actually is: an endorsement of closely-spaced permanent anchors (as opposed to trad climbing in which one espouses to leave as little trace as possible) along with the illusion of accomplishment provided by rap-bolting and siege-rehersals of difficult climbs. You might be the only one who didn't realize that his via ferrata comments were satire: basically stating that those who endorse sport climbing are often opposed to via ferrata when in fact the latter has very interesting parallels with the former. Apparently you don't like the fact that someone has a different opinion than yourself. I know "pope" and he's not a sport-climber, although he's no doubt tried it as we all have. Is he pushing it on you? Mindless? Pope is a very thoughtful fellow and the two of us have discussed this for years. Consider the perspective, disregard it if you wish, accept it all or in pieces, or ignore it...it's your option. Dude....thanks for the insult...you don't know me either, but you just weakened your own credibility with that ridiculous comment.

Outdated? Because the masses are either ignorant, clueless or uncaring? Are you the mighty trend-monging philostopher who dictates which "idealisms" are outdated? Mr. E. seems to say: "everything new is good." Go ahead, love that Cheese Wiz, plastic Christmas trees, paper wedding dresses, and how about that new war in Iraq! Accept it all, go with the flow, and live in a pleasant cave of passivity, or hang onto your heart-felt ideals and strive for change. Thus a response to this subject. Bravo, pope.

I'm in London and I'm drunk...easily done here. Pubs as far as the eye can see. Tasty! Taps...dozens of them.....awesome! Must....try.....them.....all...... WILL....try ....them...all... - "Raindawg"

Hola! I'm in Egypt, and I'm drunk! Vital Statistics: Stella Beer: horse piss....a friend of mine used to hold the bottles up to the light and claimed to be able to see straw from the stable floor. A lot of it is sold here. The question of the day: why??? Sakkara Beer: not much better than the above, although in a more appealing bottle with an attractive label. Rumored to be donkey piss. Luxor Beer: a new brand trying to give the two above a run for the money. Not bad. Comes in a regular can and a tall "safari" size. They also produce a special wino beer called Luxor 10%....undrinkable...one swig and I was back to the safari cans full of the standard stuff. Carry on.... your pal, "Raindawg" P.S.: I'm ddddrrrrrruuunnnnnnkkkkkk!

First what? First artificial outdoor climbing rock? Schurman Rock in West Seattle got it beat by several decades. First fake rock utilizing poured concrete slabs with embedded stones? Maybe. Fake Climbing Rocks in Puget Sound

Speaking of Patrick Swayze...nobody is hotter than Miss Jennifer Grey, daughter of Broadway legend, Joel Grey. Perhaps you might remember her in a little film I like to call: "Dirty Dancing".

Ditto. I didn't always agree with his style, but he definately LIVED THE LIFE!

More than likely it is the Mountaineers with their several local chapters. By the way, I'd rather share the route with OSAT than the Mountaineers. OSAT (One Step At A Time)is terrific and isn't some mere hobby club, but has a socially therapeutic mission for individuals recovering from addiction. B.S. What kind of LAME thinking is that? Jens has every right to point out nonsense without some sort of arbitrary requirement to personally find a solution and participate. He's complaining because he has an opinion. I happen to agree with him. Give it some thought and maybe YOU should help fix the problem if should agree and you're involved with those people. [an example: I think the bananas suck this week at the Fred Meyer's in Tacoma. Should I, therefore, go to Guatemala, open a banana plantation and make sure the quality control is adequate for my Tacoma customers? Or can I let the complaint be known and those who might be concerned about reputation and quality deal with the situation?) You want more "what's wrong with the Mountaineers"? Check into their little "mentors" program, a.k.a. "the blind leading the blind." "I know you are but what am I?"

Hey! Me 'n pope will be there!!! Uh....probably not.

Dude! It was awesome! Everybody whose been there before was there! I'm sure you could imagine what it was like without even being present: the usual equipment swap, new gear demo from Petzl and Black Diamond, Messner's slide-show, the complimentary lap-dances, the champagne fountain, the free limo service back home for those who "had a few". (And dang that Messner! If I hear him give that "Gasherbrum" talk one more time, I'm never going to one of these Pube Club things again....hasn't he climbed anything else he can brag about????) The goody-bags from the gear reps were pretty decent this time...just about everybody got at least six new cams and a coupon for a pro-deal. The worse part of the whole evening was everybody asking where Catbirdhead was. Either you're really popular, or they ran out of new stuff to talk about week after week, or both. So where's it going to be next time? I'm hoping for a new down jacket and I have a few books from Europe I'd like autographed. The Pube Club Logo:

Don't hold your breath or anything else...most folks don't know a dog bone from a people bone from a funny-shaped rock. I took courses in this kind of stuff in graduate school and they tried to fool us with bones from manatee's, and all kinds of freaky things to see if they could stump us on identifications. Back in the day, at a certain beach in So. Cal., I recall some kids were digging around in the sand and found a small collection of small bones. Upon examination by the lifeguard, a real expert in such matters, it was determined that they were the bones of an infant, and the police were notified. End results: KFC...chicken bones from chicken lunch. "Hi! I'm Dave the Lifeguard! I'll save your life AND I'm trained in faunal analysis and human osteology!" Another bone anecdote...working at an archaeological site in Israel, we used to have occasional visits by the local ultra-orthodox folks who were concerned that we might be finding human bones. They'd look through the chain-link fence surrounding our excavation and yell and scream when they'd see bones in our sifting screen. So very angry they would be. (The assumption is that they were Jewish bones and they were not to be messed with.) They weren't people bones, but were typically from goats, so while our visiting friends might be world-class experts on Talmudic issues, they knew SQUAT about bones. So we'd take them aside nicely, calm them down, and told them about the goats and that we'd let them know if we found some exciting human bones. Later....we found a strange looking pot....looked just like the kind of pot they used to put sacrificed infants into at Carthage (some of our guys had worked at Carthage and had found loads of these things). Not wanting to cause alarm and invite van loads of angry, bearded, black-hatted protesters, we "excavated" the jars contents in our little indoor lab. Sure enough, bones began to appear...and a strange roundish object.....the end result: an egg and pieces of chicken....no joke....some guy's lunch from over 2000 years ago. In short...don't get so worked up about people finding a few bones until someone who knows has taken a look at it. But then again....bones don't last very long in the forest so if there really are there, they are probably relatively recent. P.S. Don't be flaunting bones around these guys:

Fight them over there or they're coming over here! For a glimpse of your future due to complacency, check out this DISTURBING video:

LAME!!! You call that entertainment???? Now THIS is entertainment!!: Watch This!

What haunts me??? My high-school girlfriend today....

Did someone say minyan? We'll be there!