Raindawg

Ain't no bigger Zappa fans on this whole dang site then Mr. Dwayner and Mr. Pope. None. You can aspire to be...and maybes come a little close...but nones be bigger fans! Although my So. Cal. climbin' buddy, Dennis erectus, can hold an entire day's covermasation jus quotin' lines from Mr. Zappa. Ya suh! here's one, for Mr. Zappa! an annudah! An one mo fo da "Thingfish!"!

Hey noggin, sorry man to have to disagree with you on all points here: 1)...this "ass woop'n" caveman-posturing that you and some of the others talk about is passe. "Ass woopin'" in 2007 = "jail time" = 4 YOU. 2) Karma? How many of you really believe in that boring cliche? 3) The "climbing world" isn't a small place.....there are huge numbers of people calling themselves "climbers", like ants on a dropped Jolly Rancher. (see my comments somewhere about about how sport-climbing and gyms made climbing accessible to the semi-informed masses.) 4) Stealing? Like a few of the other people discussing this topic, I'd like to high-five the guy who picked up the vertical litter. Young Eggplant-Head: By the time you're 17, hopefully you've learned to clean up after your outdoor adventures. Some people never get the message. Leaving the retrieved junk at the base of the climb is one option, I suppose, but there is no guarantee that someone who left the stuff is coming back nor that someone will "steal" it. One might argue that it should be treated the same way as that tractor tire someone threw off the cliff or the other refuse that those "non-climbing gorge-concert dudes" who are always blamed leave at Vantage. [it get's the rolling eyes because I've seen climbers leave plenty of litter.] Is cleaning up a mess "stealing"? Should we just leave that tractor tire out there cuz it's somebody else's stuff? Or that lawn chair with the torn seat that's sitting toppled over by an impromptu campsite on a Monday morning? You find it hard to believe that a dog would piss on your foot? You are lucky it wasn't your rope or pack! They'll snarl, scare local wildlife and get into your stuff. I was belaying a guy way up on a hillside in Icicle Canyon once, tied into an anchor, while I watched a dog rummage through our packs and take our food! The dog's owner was three pitches up and could care less. Leave "Chilkoot", "Denali", and "Gri-Gri" at home. Lots of folks don't like dogs and the issues they create. Speaking of Vantage...I knew a guy who took his dog out to Vantage where he was parked somewhere around the vicinity of "Air Guitar". Twice in the same day the beast was nearly killed by rock fall that came within inches. Bow-wow! "Bad dog! Go home!"

A few decades ago there was a concept of the "brotherhood of the rope". Back then, most climbers in a given region knew all the other ones or about them. And then, beginning about 20 years ago, there was a big explosion in the number of people participating in "climbing" with the widespread embracing of sport-climbing with its appealing dumb-downed learning curve and minimal financial investment. And now, "climbers" are being churned out in even great numbers via the gym. (And you have to be really careful who you choose as a partner these days because some of these guys KNOW NOTHING!) My opinion: climbers are not particularly special anymore...many of the new ones have no concept of the depth of ethics or environmental responsibility. I used to think that if gear was stolen, it would never be a climber....now, my assumption is quite the opposite...who else would want that crap, who else is going to litter the crags with their junk? "Oh...not a climber!" Please! Are you getting bored? You can always toss out one-liners in spray. How about this still mostly unaddressed question about this "quickdraw" situation: Why do you think you have "the right" to leave them? Especially on public property?

Yah, whatever. Climbing difficulty shouldn't even be part of the issue. You want to train, go to the gym, but don't leave your crap outdoors for the rest of us to experience one way or another. A question asked earlier to those who think no one has "the right" to remove their quickdraws: Why do you think you have "the right" to leave them? Especially on public property?

Why do you think you have a right to leave them? Especially on public property? If you think that the difficulty justifies leaving the refuse on the wall, you don't have much of an argument. If you think all "hard" routes are done this way, you need to step outside of the especially selfish world of sport-climbing where leaving a mess seems to be acceptable as long as some "entertaining" line results. Smith Rock was very cool before it became a bolt-circus (and a heck of a lot less crowded!). I remember the first time I saw a line of quick draws left on some route in the Dihedrals. The first thing that came to my mind was, "what's the matter with these people?" My feelings haven't changed. Vantage?....it's a shameful atrocity. I don't have the time nor the inclination, but I think you should take them down. If someone else chooses to, perhaps they can leave them with a note at the North Bend Ranger Station, indicating where they were found so their owner can retrieve them and remember to take them home next time. Maybe the rangers will have an opinion about whether it's appropriate for anyone to leave their stuff up there.

It's a legitimate topic when the subject itself is actually addressed. If there are no opinions, than we have nothing to discuss other than we all agree on this or that. As can be seen thus far, there are some radically different responses to this whole topic so the "discussion" is useful in at least presenting viewpoints. This started out as an interesting exchange, but it seems, as things often do around here, to be heading toward the spray cellar. Let the moderators decide when to pull the plug and send it packing to the free-for-all.

RUMR say: You clearly don't understand my philosophy on these things so until you do, I suggest you refrain from pretending. Mr. Phil say: Save your insults for spray. Mr. Ryland Moore say: I think most people are familiar with the practice but that doesn't mean everyone things it's a good thing to do. It's bad enough that there's permanent damage, and, it makes the excuse for leaving your draws/refuse in place even weaker. By the way, some of you consider these "projects". Again, if your "projects" are on public land, I don't think it's reasonable to leave your gear for the rest of us to experience. Secondly, one of my "projects" is keeping the environment fairly nice, which means NOT leaving a mess. Take your stuff down if you're not there and climbing it. Save that crap for the gym. Besides, leaving your "draws" up for weeks is like a micro-siege...a tiny little version of an old-style expedition except you're leaving the mountain with all your junk left there and then coming back over and over again.

Here's one of the classics: Girl Repellent

How about contributing something of substance to this discussion? No, I haven't. Is that even relevant? Again...something of substance? Show us you're not just another guy on the internet with a big sassy mouth.

Lots of consulation going on here, but consider this: How about some "leave little trace" ethic? How about picking up your mess before you leave? It's like leaving your tent in your favorite free camp spot all week so it will be there for you next weekend. It's ugly and selfish. I'd be tempted to take the quick draws down and post a message where they could be retrieved or just throw them in the garbage as abandoned litter. You probably rappeled down to place them in the first place; how about rappeling down to remove them after your big day at Vantage? The guys who took them were obviously capable of doing it! You're working hard to climb the route; work a little harder to keep the place a little nicer. "Ya, dude, but...it's my "project"!"...you can think that, but it's not your rock. By the way, I didn't take your quick-draws...I have an allergy to most sport-climbing venues. I hope you get them back but I also hope you don't leave them hanging anymore.

Yet further proof that Big Lou is Alpine Royalty!

BIG LOU reviews his royal alpine troops!

What is it that His Lou-ness CONTINUES TO DO to "the rest of us on the Big R right now!" that makes him worthy of such disdain? I suggest that we have a BIG case of Lou-envy. Your woeful attempt at insulting HRH Big Lou fails miserably as British slang for "toilet" is not "Lou", but "loo". Perhaps you should take a seat on the latter and consider how you might best apologize to the former.

BIG LOU IS ALPINE ROYALTY!

Dang straight, they don't! They went climbing. Buzz went on one of the scariest, riskiest adventures in human history. I met him once. Dang intense, and the only one of the original Apollo 11 dudes making a real effort to promote space exploration. Ain't no one in climbing who even compares. But I do know who AlpineK is.

No end to amusement how some of you groupies drop these pseudo-celebrity first names. "Yah, but wudda 'bout chris, beth, 'n tommy, an here's a shout out for m'man, Davey (Graham)...gib me fibe!" Who gives a:

My four favorite drunks: Otis Campbell of Mayberry (Hal Smith). Unashamed and with a heart of gold! Crazy Guggenheim (Frank Fontaine), Jacky Gleason's buddy with the golden voice. Hear Crazy G. sing! Foster Brooks. Classy! Hank the Angry Dwarf....a bit out of control, but amusing.

Great picture of Trigger Finger! I climbed it the first of many times on my first trip to Leavenworth in March 1976. After he got off work as a dishwasher at a Mexican restaurant, at midnight, Jim Yoder drove me, Matt Kerns, and Mike Adams over the pass in his giant smoking Cadillac that required a couple of quarts of fresh oil every hour or so. After spinning out on highway ice (at least once), we arrived around 3 AM to the apple orchards where we slept on the edge of the road. (No parking lot then!). Trigger Finger and all of the weird shapes of the Pinnacles greeted me when I woke up and then I spent a wild day paired up with Mike Adams, wearing a too small pair of stiff rock shoes kindly lent to me by Kerns. I hadn't done a lot of 5.9 then but I sure did a few by the end of the day, including a scary route on Trigger Finger called "Hangover". It was located on the side of the Finger opposite that in the photo and involved a poorly-protected, overhanging, two-handed free-flying lunge for a lip with some questionable shenanigans afterwards. Trigger Finger was a real novelty climb and Mike Adams would occasionally do a headstand on the summit. I tried it a couple of times but would get disoriented...the anchors were below the summit and a fall would have meant a spooky tumble. Good times! Here's a picture of Trigger Finger before and after it's mighty fall: Summit Post: Trigger Finger

Cathead say: And there is no reason why not to belay and rappel from the same place, directly from your tie-in points. This is exactly how I teach belaying. I start with the traditional hip belay...they learn the concept of belaying very effectively, and then I add "the toys". There is a good chance that they'll never use the hip belay on their own, but at least they won't become a slave to some little device they might drop, forget or whatever, and become rescue-bait....the hip-belay is an important technique in one's alpine "bag-of-tricks" in case of need, or for expediency, as I occasionally use it.

Hey Cathead: Let me ask you again...would you tie into your beloved belay loop?

Dude...that's so over the top. I'm sure you understand EXACTLY what me 'n pope be saying.

Rest when you're dead.

If that's what passes for climbing these days, we're done....SO DONE! Woo-hoo!

Nope...wasn't trying to make a joke...just a commentary on belay loops about which this topic is related, cuz this up and down hand stuff makes no sense unless you're doing the loop. Hey Cathead: Whatever. You brought it on with this "old-timers" nonsense. I know plenty of folks of various experience who don't use their belay loops for belaying or anything else. Think what you like, "professor", my opinion is that belay loops are bogus....I suppose you can use it as a gear loop to hang stuff off of if you like to get wacked in the Jimmy as you climb. Would you tie into that thing??? I imagine that you don't. Would you rappel off that thing? I wouldn't. So why belay off it? Just another link in the chain to mess you up.

Hey Cathead: enough of the "old timer"/old "skewl" crap. Why don't you just call it "safe timer"/ safe school. I'm surprised they don't teach the "clip the tie-in points" method at "The Mountaineers". Ask your buddy Todd Skinner about his new timer/ new "skewl" belay loop.