Raindawg

Dude....would you rather see a 3-story high image of this guy? Go to the Luxor Hotel in Vegas...his mug is everywhere.

The funny thing is that he dates your sister.

Carrot-Top sport-climbs and dates your sister. Discuss. Working out for a heinous clip-fest! Yes....YOUR sister! "Did someone say Pub Club??? I'm on my way!!!"

What the heck you folks talkin' about? Who would go to a climbing web-site to ask technical computer questions and expect to get a sober, informed answer? We're all one big helpful family, eh? Who do I turn to when I've got a problem in life?....fixing the car, making up/making out with my girlfriend, help with the philosophy term-paper....ya...my fellow climber...they know...and they're always there for me, giving great advice like this classic: (Actually, if I recall, its C:format but don't do that.) Moderators....please move this discussion to the Nerd Forum.

Wait until all the police and rescue dudes show up for this:

How's my holidays? Here's a pictorial summary: Nuff said.

Perfect snow/ice, the cameraman's footsteps above here and there, an occasional tilted perspective to make it look especially steep, the world's longest rope and an invisible belayer, a non-sequitur involving a toast with some sort of liquid in a cup, and a surprise ending through what looks like the turnstiles at the Puyallup Fair...otherwise, a mildly entertaining what-not.

Maybe if you could grow your schnoz this big you'd have more harvesting room:

Bacon? Not so good. Try something from another animal.

Here are some pills for'ya!

Dwayner.....definitely Dwayner. If not, then his buddy pope.

Right on, Tim. Right on, pope. And a big round of applause for billcoe who has posted the information a growing number of folks are seeking: not only how to chop/"remove", but very importantly, how to RESTORE. This info. needs to be made readily accessible, and not just as an ephemeral topic that will vanish into the archives with the rest. This subject ain't going away, even if it disappears from here. In fact, I hope it picks up some real momentum in 2007!

Dear Santa....could you add a couple of cool quick-draws to my list?....no....I take that back...I didn't mean that....what I really meant was three cool quick-draws. Uh...they're not for me...uh, they're for my sister...ya, my sister's rack... oooohhhhhh nooooooo I didn't mean to say my sister's rack, Santa...I meant my sister's rack....sorry, sorry, sorry...let's start over...o.k.? could you add a couple of cool quick-draws to my list? Thank you, Santa. respectfully, you're pal, "Sporty" Bergheimer

Dude....you all wrong! Robin Leach is alive and well and living in Las Vegas!

I've just read through (painfully) fifteen pages of mostly drivel, although there appeared an occasional thoughtful and provocative post(e.g. billcoe, "bug", directly above) while others, in my opinion, are rude, irrelevant or irreverant. My opinion to you, original poster, despite your "everest-qualified" amigo's smug opinion, is that you should be profoundly grateful that anyone is willing to search for you or anyone else, in their time of dire need. No need to bash SAR at this time. No need to second-guess the preparations or intentions of the lost climbers. This discussion might better take place outside of the immediate context of a real-life crisis in which many people are spending their precious time and money, and risking their own lives in an attempt to rescue the lives of fellow human beings. Give it a rest for awhile, eh? This situation might be best evaluated in retrospect, ideally with the input from the (hopefully) rescued climbers themselves.

What's the difference???? Yo mama. Go Timmay----you so plab!

Sad! A really sharp fellow: Ph.D. in biology. I remember when he taught at PLU in the Division of Natural Sciences...I knew his lovely wife, Tara...The man was intense and beyond enthusiastic about life and climbing. I can't imagine what might lead to such tragedy. Very sorry to hear about this.

That change is by nature "good" must be one of the greatest fallacies of all time. "New ways of thinking" have brought us some good things through time, e.g., "slavery is bad and should be eliminated", "minorities can go to school", "let's create National Parks". It also brought us National Socialism and Cheese-Wiz. Regarding "advancement": I didn't want to bring this up, but people keep mentioning the "big numbers" and "progress". Along with the ethical issues of sport-climbing (drilling holes, etc.), the accompanying stylistic issues of this so-called "advancement" are pathetic; in short, "the rules" allow siege-climbing a route into submission until one's rehearsals bring results, including BIG EXCITING NUMBERS!!! (Read all the breathless NEWS! in the latest climbing rag....So and so just climbed a 5.15h at Spagettio Crags in Oklahoma: a spicy 30 ft. face climb named "World Dominator" sparsely protected by 8 bolts!) Sure, it's possible that you can get stronger doing that, and such can thereafter be applied to one's trad-climbing, but what an illusion that whole scene is when compared with the day when a ground-up ascent with few or no falls demonstrated the ability of one's competency....none of this pink point/red point/brown point crap, taking a month on a 60 ft. climb while you hang off your rapped-placed atrocities. Think about it. Should we accept something that we feel is bad just because the trend "evolves"/devolves in a certain direction? If you're disturbed by our attitude, we're equally dismayed by yours (but not disturbed - we can sleep at night).

"Clip 'n Go!" "Anybody seens my's gri-gri?" Happy now?

Is there some relevance to your point here??? Something to contribute other than "don't call me sparky"? If you miss the richard simmons and clown pics that are applicable to the topic, but not in a civil, serious discussion, I can happily provide some for you in a spray-forum. Otherwise, do you have something substantive to contribute?

Geek the Greek say: Not so. Adding permanent artificial alterations to the landscape AND the degradation of the landscape are BOTH environmental/ethical issues. The stylistic bits (e.g. siege climbing) are secondary, except that the sport-climbing style is utterly bolt-dependent and therefore relates to the environmental aspects.

Hey catbird....a mere lament it is not. You seem to think that the ideal should be ignored because its realistic application seems far-fetched. I think a major attitude shift is required and probably some legal action as has taken place at certain areas. It might all start with education: how many new climbers starting in their gym or sport nurseries are given a clue that bolts are permanent alterations to the landscape and are thus ethically questionable? Probably not very many, because it questions the environmental validity of their very sport. Anyway, not to even suggest that climbing is of any wide consequence on a vital human scale, but I'm glad there were people "lamenting" slavery, genocide and various dubious war adventures. KEVBONE SAY: Exposé time: me 'n pope came up with this topic as a way to throw a bone out for discussion. Neither or us intended to go to that film as we didn't have the time plus it was geographically unfeasible. But had the film been showing right down the street, we wouldn't have gone to it on principle and we have every right to suggest to others to ignore it. "Holier-than-thou" because we apparently have an ethic we hold higher than drilling the snot out of the climbing environment? - call it what you will. This particular discussion is actually quite remarkable by cc.com standards as it usually degenerates into wholesale and gratuitous CRAP after a mere handful of posts. Although, the not uncommon "hypocrite" toss-out once again makes its irrelevant appearance: Again, this is not a hypocricy debate. Hypocricy has NOTHING to do with the core issue. It's a weak attempt to diminish the credibility of the messengers, rather than address the issues themselves. See you at Smith Rocks, where you can "call me out", whatever that means.

RUMR say: "Sparky", is a friendly term...a dictionary definition has it as "animated; lively". It's a positive thing: Like, "Sparky the Firedog": or baseball legend "Sparky Anderson": You don't like us calling you "sparky"? I can live with that request.

RUMR say: Dude...leave your worn-out, childish "poop and dwanus" routine for spray. This has turned out to be a remarkably civil expression of views so how about keeping it above the spray-level? You're right: Speaking for myself (pope can speak for himself), I don't care about the "envelope" and I would "prefer that the envelope stay stationary to having the experience and mini environment around the crag degraded..." I'll take it one step further: as a climber myself, I wouldn't mind if certain areas were shut down to climbing if climbers can't restrain themselves from rampant permanent alteration of the environment. "G-spotter" say: Save the "has-been" pseudo-psychological speculation for the spray-pile. Do you really think that's what motivates my perspectives? You don't have a clue. Some of us actually care about the environment and are embarrassed by some of the trends of modern climbing.

VW4EVER SAY: Therefore?????? They must be right and I'm wrong? No. I like the Smith Rocks. It's a beautiful place, and it was even prettier before it became a bolted circus with its crowd-attracting metallic highways. Smith Rock, sad to say, was an incubator for the continent-wide abuse that followed. No one's opinion is being denied here. In fact, it's to cc.com's credit that they aren't shutting me down, which has happened several times in the past on just such topics. There are thousands of issues to be involved with, and I have my own causes, and if you are a climber, you should be concerned with related issues, and this is one of them. If you've read the discussion up to this point, you may have noticed many people trying to smokescreen or trivialize the issue by pointing to issues of relative scale. Sure, it's not on the scale of global warming, genocide in Africa or the tearing up of mountainsides for ski areas, but if YOU are a climber, the impact of YOUR behavior in the environment of YOUR recreation should be of PERSONAL concern, no matter how small. You could bitch about a pile of beer cans left by hikers on the side of the trail, but at least the cans can be picked up and removed. Bolts are PERMANENT alterations, and like chipping holds, might at best be restored after chopping/mending. Think about what you're doing before you place or clip that bolt. Are you contributing to, or endorsing, this sort of alteration? And then there are those who say, "Get over it...it's here to stay." Not necessarily. Rampant bolt-use IS being curtailed here and there and hopefully this will become widespread. My prediction for the future: sport-climbing will be seen by future generations as a selfish, careless, gratuitous degradation of the rock environment. Its stylistic practices (e.g. siege-climbing until unlimited rehearsals provide the desired result) might also be looked down upon with disdain. In the future, I'd hope to see widespread restoration programs to erase and repair the ugly deeds of the last 20 years and hopefully, there will be new kinds of gear that will render bolts obsolete, so there will be no more justification for rampant drilling. And another thing....all this talk about how useful sport-climbing is in upping the difficulty standards of trad-climbing or rock climbing in general: Clipping bolts to improve your trad climbing???? My opinion: the end doesn't justify the means. Better the numbers stayed lower than contribute to the mess. (And although I've for the most part stayed away from the dubious stylistic aspects of sport-climbing, consider how most of those "cutting edge" climbs are being "accomplished": days, if not weeks, of siege climbing.) There are other ways to get stronger than clipping bolts....try doing it the old-fashion way...push your limits on trad-climbs or with a top-rope. Or, try working out in a climbing gym....unappealing to me:sick:....but there's plenty of them out there! And one more thing: another common theme thrown out here is the worn cliché, "it's all good!". My response...."no it ain't".