Raindawg

Mission failed! Yes we do. TRUE ENOUGH! Scroll on by! It ain't all about you. Go away if you don't like it, "Kayfire", or is it "Trollfire"?. DWAYNER SAYS : BOOO BOOO BOOOOO BOOOO

I consider it generally bad form in most cases to leave ropes, 'biners and other crap affixed to the rock for one's long-term convenience. As it can be difficult to determine someone else's intentions, I suggest that if someone's involved in some sort of "noble purpose", that they should be prepared to leave a weatherproof note of explanation (e.g., flagging tape marked by a Sharpie and tied around a rope's end). Otherise, I see litter selfishly left or abandoned. Not a bad idea. Pull them down and if they're still there in a week, cart them to the dumpster.

This should have been moved to "Spray" from the very first post.

Thanks, Dane, for sharing the link to the fine film. I especially enjoyed his wilderness perspective (around 37 minutes into the film) which is well worth contemplating. Messner was/is certainly driven and the fact remains that he accomplished so many amazing things for the FIRST time and the sharing of his stories and outlook have inspired many. One of my first climbing partners back in the mid-'70's read "The Seventh Grade" by Messner and it served as a real positive life-motivator.

Read the last few posts above. We got your attention, didn't we! And the Via Ferrata photo we so enjoy is intended to put things into perspective....it's just one step beyond sport-climbing in so many ways! Grabbing my attention? Sure the picture did, and I think it is a amusing photo. The thing is it helps a thread turn to a clown show. I like a good clown act! Laughing at a picture doesn't make me jump to the conclusion that you have the correct viewpoint though. If your goal is to make a serious point then you have to save the circus act for later. Nice that ya met Rodger of Rodger's Corner. No, dude....it ain't a clown show....see any clown costume??? no, he's pointing at the majority...it's just one step beyond the acceptable parameters of today's "climbers" beloved "sport" mentality. Get the point?

Another worthless contribution. That added nothing to the topic.

Actually... we have every intention to bring our issues to another stage and we will be presenting our views to a greater audience, including folks outside the "climbing world". But your idea about a summary of our issues on cc.om is a good one. "Kimmo". and a good number of others, are probably exempt from a counterpoint due to their demonstrated lack of serious interest.

i'm afraid that the actual polarity between our views would be insufficient to fire up a screed from these quarters, since i tend to exhibit some similar tendencies of view as poop and brainfog. really? well maybe not. they are just a little too passionate about lonely choss piles in the woods. and richard simmons. plus, i'd hate to get all formal on a subject that i don't see as all that important. i just don't think a post of mine on cc.com would have many repercussions in the larger world. Your attitude certainly eliminates you from the "discussion".

Bring 'em on, dude. I bet you don't have any, and if you do, I could use some for my collection. I can probably recount every one. A few here in Joshua Tree and at Big Rock in So. Cal., some long run-outs at the Peshastin Pinnacles...whatever. Were you there for the two I actually drilled by hand in 37 years of climbing? (One has vanished courtesy of nature and the other is obsolete and can now be chopped, if it isn't gone already. Good riddance!) I'll chime right in now. I began climbing when the "Clean climbing ethic" was the rage. I've watched it go down the toilet over the last 20 or so years for convenience. Yes, my ideas have matured over 30 years as I hope yours have, and now I'm becoming an environmental activist as I've watched "climbers", of all people, wantonly disregard the "leave little trace ethic" for cheap fun. A civil discussion has never been had, at least here. Remains to be seen. Send me a PM with your real identity...(not to be revealed to the unwashed masses) and you can demonstrate if we really have a history or not as you claim, or just another phony sideliner.

Read the last few posts above. We got your attention, didn't we! And the Via Ferrata photo we so enjoy is intended to put things into perspective....it's just one step beyond sport-climbing in so many ways! By the way, I just happened to see Roger of "Roger's Corner" fame this very evening. He's alive, well, and high-spirited...and always a pleasure to encounter!

For someone who pretends to be educated and enlightened, your comments above just demonstrated your shallow-mindedness....i.e., your disinterest in the potential for a civil discussion of an issue that is vital, current, and will very much be upcoming, whether or not you recognize it as such or not. Feel free not to participate if that is your attitude.

What, you mean without the same tired rhetoric with endless pictures of Richard Simmons, clowns, midgets and ham sandwiches? Yup...that's what I'm saying. Alot of that was intentional "in your face" theatre to grab your attention whether you appreciated it or not. By the way, those weren't "ham sandwiches", they were "B-LT's".

Y'all friends now? I don't see Porter chiming in on this claim. They are moved to spray quickly instead of exercising some modicom of moderating. As I remember, the last thread was moved to spray because Lucky took a dump in it. (Everyone has to be good at something). It is not my site and you can do what you want. I'm guessing you (moderators who move the threads to spray and their supporters) will be remembered as being very short sighted. I choose to stand up for wilderness ethics regardless of what forum you think the discussion belongs in. Real names won't solve the problem. Certain topics, however, might require special moderation. I say that we need a well-moderated ethics forum where vulgar name-calling, threats and thread sabotage will not be permitted. If you think that bolting and wilderness issues are dead in climbing, you're wrong. In fact, there is some momentum building.

So Off White...I did a little search on this board last night to find my so-called book promotions. What did I find? Years ago I quoted from a couple of them to address questions, including one about Machu Picchu and gave a title of an archaeology book where I describe such sites should anyone be interested. Book promotion???? Hardly. I never mentioned my own name or where I live. And if I had, it would have been my own choice, not that of "mattp" who has an axe to grind when it comes to certain topics. And I consider adding my town of residence to be malicious. And then there are those who ridicule my profession outside of climbing and the moderators must find it amusing despite the complaints. Whatever, dude.

That doesn't make any sense at all. What control does one have over the reactions of some of the immature or unstable people who post on the internet? Should I alter my apparently unpopular perspectives because they piss people off? I don't think so. Reread what "Bug" wrote....some people HAVE received threats of from anonymous wankers: The site supervisors/owners should make a decision: keep things anonymous (with no toleration for threats or "outing")or require actual names...after which, one can decide whether to continue to participate or not, especially in the latter case.

Nope, try again. Hint: it's about your blatant hypocrisy. Yoda say: "Shallow, and not very smart you are." I'll take your above posted picture-response as a threat. It's been noted and shared.

Nope, try again. Hint: it's about your blatant hypocrisy. Yoda say: "Shallow, and not very smart you are."

Is there a punchline to this joke? Could it be...the difference is that you apparently know nothing about the Valley of the Kings or archaeology??? Could that be it? Dude....you're both ignorant and gratuitously hateful, both of which are clouding your mind.

I disagree. That's the old LAME excuse that as long as there is a bigger mess somewhere else, you don't have to deal with the smaller ones. By that logic, anything short of strip-mining should be O.K. So, chop some convenience holds, grid-bolt them crags, and power-drill away because there's a ski-area nearby and some clear-cutted hillsides across the way. There's an open sewer in Pakistan, so I'm absolved from cleaning up the piles of dog crap in my own backyard. Whatever! Believe it or not, climbers can both clean up their own mess AND care about the bigger picture.

Yah? But have you installed bolts with a power drill in a Wilderness Area? That's what this topic is about. And if such routes have been illegally installed, should they be erased?

"Fixing the mistake" would send a clear message: keep your power drills and other machines out of the wilderness. If it weren't for power drilling, (on rappel, no less,) this route wouldn't exist. And trails? Manufacture a sport climb and it will attract "climbers" like flies to dung. IB already has.

Thanks to you, this topic is now in spray. Happy now????

Dude...we're trying to have a discussion here and you're detracting from it with your vulgarity and personal attacks. Or are you just trying to get this topic dumped into spray again because you seem to profoundly disagree with it? I started this topic with the following and a variety of interesting perspectives have been shared: Give it a try or go away...really.

No worries, dude....whether I'm referred to as "Raindawg", "Dwayner" or "Don", I don't intend to personally share beta nor "hook up" with you as a climbing partner. BACK TO THE SUBJECT and something to consider: If you choose to climb IB, knowing full well that it was illegally established in a Wilderness area, then you are endorsing its existence. That's why some of us will likely never climb that "route" other than with the purpose of erasing it.

They aren't ham sandwiches, they're B_LT's! and most of that was in response to the lame idea some were promoting that THE MAN might be searching the internet and learning that not everyone agreed on the topic of bolting. So someone suggested that they be noted as "B_LT's" rather than "Bolts" to thwart THE MAN's mighty search engines and keep him from the ugly truth and the resulting consequences. For your nostalgic pleasure, the grid-B_LTed wonderland known as Exit 38: (and yes, every sammich is placed over the real thing.)