Raindawg

A great example as to why some of us despise sport "cimbing".

Good for you!! It's a reasonable tune and I like it. Scroll on by, know it all! you suck. grow up. Move on, weak-one-with-a-vulgar-colloquial-vocabulary (i.e. "you suck"...really now!). Grow up? Anyone with half an environmental conscience will understand my perspective. Obviously you don't. The Mountaineers should become more introspective before they start offering courses in one of the most "leave a trace" outdoors pursuit there is. By the way, it's a well known fact that you personally don't like me....so your knee-jerk response added less than nothing.

Good for you!! It's a reasonable tune and I like it. Scroll on by, know it all!

Hey Groovy Guys, Groovy Gals! Don't be dissin' now on the Mountaineers, 'cuz they livin' in the future! Check it out! If you gots it inya to be a crag-anarchist and defile your local stones witha metallic trails any which way ya please so ya's can get's up it (without bangin' your noggin), or at least support the movement in that there direction, it seems like the Tacoma Mountaineers gotcha covered RIGHT CHEER! "Prospective intermediate climbing students are especially encouraged to take the course.." Yee ha! http://www.tacomamountaineers.org/activities/sport_climbing.cfm P.S. Shame on ya! Y'all ain't gotta clue! Clip 'n Go!!!

Keep it up and you'll get your wish: the usual relegation of environmental and/or ethical topics to Spray!

You don't like my contrary perspectives or the way I present them? Is this Choada Boy.com? Here's something you might try: If you see the name Raindawg on the post, keep scrolling! Enjoy the laughs! Crapping in a trail so someone will step in it..pretty juvenile fantasy you got going there! Is that in the repretoire of hip, modern climbers? I guess I'm not hip. Yup, that's me! P.S. You got a pretty strange mean-streak. Scroll on by.

Don't read them. Don't respond to them.

Tired of myself? Never. Tired of vulgar you? Always. No one cares? Actually, I am regularly thanked for my so-called "drivel" by folks who appreciate my perspectives, many of whom will probably never post in cc.com because of the likes of you. You can,in fact, expect a growing number of people agreeing with me. By the way, you, "Rad" and "Water" have stepped up to prove my point: many in the climbing "community" are antagonistic to an ethic that argues restraint when it comes to altering the environment. Dumb it all down to your standards? Take out a stump because it's incovenient? Cut down the forest at Index so you can climb drier? Whatever. Most of the rest of the outdoor world has long passed you by.

As noted right here above, yet another climber proves himself intolerant of environmentalist perspectives (oh the irony!) and suggests that such discussion deserves to be thrown in the sewer that is "Spray" along with such lofty topics as "Grocery outlets", "Sheep" and "Seagals". Climbers used to have the reputation of being the standard-bearers of environmental conservation. No longer. It's almost a joke now. Backpackers (a.k.a. "wimps" by many "climbers" standards) had it figured out decades ago and now it's getting to the point where even the much derided snow-mobilers seem to leave less impact than many climbers. You want to cut a stump? No doubt it fits right in with the convenience-standard of numerous "climbers" today. You think perspectives of ethics that conflict with your own belong in spray? Shallow, I say....shallow.

But you did, dude! So what's that got to say about you???? Add your name to the growing list of "climbers" allergic to ethics.

P.S. What Dane said!

Start your reply with an insult? No trolling....I actually believe the ethical opinions I share here whether you care for them or not. What's laughable is your incomprehension. I don't dismiss deforestration, strip-mining or whatever, but if you bothered to read what I stated above, I do promote that one should be responsible for their own behavior on whatever scale, no matter what the road nearby means to you. It's your choice to make a lesser impact or not. Pull a stump for some "minor deforestation", or cut trees "so the wall will dry out faster" (ala Index) or create a new "social trail", or bolt yet another line next to a crack system (visit Vantage). It's your choice but don't expect everyone to approve. Pick and choose my ethics? Believe it or not, there is a system to it and much of it has been around for several decades now and is commonly understood and practiced by many other outdoor pursuits. Articulate and classy you are!

Really? Are you, like, in Jr. High? Clueless you are.

Grow up dude....really, grow up. No one requires that you agree with me and no one requires that you behave in a certain way. I originally expressed my perspective, from an environmentalist viewpoint near the beginning of this topic, and was quickly attacked. If you've heard it all before, too bad....you aren't the only one reading this and I'm not just addressing YOU. Are you afraid of ideas that don't match your own??? Frankly, it's an embarrassment to witness how much resistance there is in the climbing "community" to widely recognized basic low-impact outdoor-pursuit principles. I guess that the ethic of not chopping up stuff and not being able to drill permanent installations at will whenever or wherever on pubic land might take away some of your best fun? Back to the original: O.K....my opinion is, once again....don't chop the stump. If you can't handle the risk, then get some better spotters or climb on some other boulder where the landing is more gentle and the requirements for your entertainment have less impact. Wow! Radical!

What guys like you never seem to understand is that while it might be difficult to control some of the bigger forces that impact the environment, you do have control over your own behavior on your own scale. Because someone else is making a bigger mess doesn't excuse you from taking responsibility for your own impact of whatever size.

Sorry about your friend. Climbing does has its risks. My opinion? Don't even think about tearing up the vegetation. Big problem, dude. Boulderers altering the landscape is becoming an increasingly recognizable problem. (Denuding vegetation, stashing crash-pads which the local rodents love, chalkin' up every last crimp, etc). You want bouldering to maintain a low-impact reputation and stay relatively uncontroversial? Keep it clean and low impact. Leave the saw, ax, or whatever at home.

Hey Kevbone.... Why would you do that????

From my perspective you'd be better off just leaving the rock in question alone if you're not willing to accept the consequences of a top-rope. Better to do so then leaving your permanent metallic trail (or endorsing someone else's) on public land. Get super-strong in a gym...they're everywhere now! As I originally stated, although siege-climbing a route to "achieve" a big number might be considered stylistically questionable by some, it is relatively harmless compared to the environmental concerns already noted. Have a nice day.

No, not everyone is aware of the alternative perspectives and not everyone reads cc.com. Obviously Matt-m wasn't fully aware, so speak for yourself. Got a problem with other viewpoints other than your own and would like to stifle them? Who's the child?? I'd venture to say that most sport-climbers have little clue that there is an opposition until The Man gets tired of their bolts and restricts them or shuts them down which they are increasingly doing. And certainly most folks coming from a gym aren't exposed to much in the way of ethics. So if you find my posts "super f*%king annoying" [really grown-up language, dude ], then scroll on by when you see the name "Raindawg". And by the way, I HAVE changed more than a few people's minds and they usually thank me for it. So enjoy your "convenience" and "fun" while it lasts.

Feelin' guilty?

Dude...you clearly don't understand the issues. There are at least two primary categories of reasons regarding why some people are offended by sport-climbing: environmental and stylistic. a) Environmental. As opposed to the "leave little trace" philosophy promoted by nearly every outdoor endeavor, sport-climbers seem to think it's o.k. to leave their permanent metallic trails anywhere they please....and abandon their equipment for their convenience (e.g. fixed draws), typically on public land. Degree of danger is not the issue. Sport-climbs are defined by lines of closely-spaced bolts so they are by nature usually much safer than gear that is placed and removed at each pitch, although there are plenty of "trad" climbs that you can "sew-up" with excellent placed-and-retrieved (clean) protection that is just as safe, if not more so, than bolted climbs. Again, "danger" is not the main issue....it's the mess sport-climbers gratuitously leave behind. From this perspective, rapping with a power-drill to "create" your "routes" is considered brazen and selfish. b)Stylistic. Hang-dogging and siege-climbing your way up a climb is of secondary concern to environmental issues. If you want to spend a month rehearsing a 50 foot climb, go to it, but don't pretend that you have the same skills as someone who can do it on-site. Hang, siege, pink/purple/orange/brown-whatever-point you want. Who cares, but don't expect everyone to respect your antics. Why not place clean gear and pull it, and your ropes, when you're done? And if it's crackless or too hard for you, why not top-rope it instead....or just climb in places where you don't have to leave your permanent mess? Do sport-climbs lack adventure? Is it a weak-sauce permutation of climbing? Many believe so, but again, in my opinion, the physical environmental issues are foremost.

14,400+ posts! Seek counseling now!

Messner is apparently an "old fuddy-duddy" because the greatest climber of all time disagrees with today's ethically selfish and lazy majority?, (and even more so because I agree with him)? Truth hurts, eh?

From the wise and prophetic Reinhold Messner, "The Murder of the Impossible"(1971): "Expansion bolts are taken for granted nowadays; they are kept to hand just in case some difficulty cannot be overcome by ordinary methods. Today's climber doesn't want to cut himself off from the possibility of retreat: he carries his courage in his rucksack, in the form of bolts and equipment. Rock faces are no longer overcome by climbing skill, but are humbled, pitch by pitch, by methodical manual labor; what isn't done today will be done tomorrow. Free-climbing routes are dangerous, so the are protected by pegs. Ambitions are no longer build on skill, but on equipment and the length of time available. The decisive factor isn't courage, but technique; an ascent may take days and days, and the pegs and bolts counted in the hundreds. Retreat has become dishonorable, because everyone knows now that a combination of bolts and singlemindedness will get you up anything, even the most repulsive-looking direttissima. Times change, and with them concepts and values. Faith in equipment has replaced faith in oneself; a team is admired for the number of bivouacs it makes, while the courage of those who still climb "free" is derided as a manifestation of lack of conscientiousness. Who has polluted the pure spring of mountaineering? The innovators perhaps wanted only to get closer to the limits of possibility. Today, however, every single limit has vanished, been erased. In principle, it didn't seem to be a serious matter, but ten years have sufficed to eliminate the word 'impossible' from the mountaineering vocabulary. Progress? Today, ten years from the start of it all, there are a lot of people who don't care where they put bolts, whether on new routes or on classic ones. People are drilling more and more and climbing less and less. "Impossible": it doesn't exist anymore. The dragon is dead, poisoned, and the hero Siegfried is unemployed. Not anyone can work on a rock face, using tools to bend it to his own idea of possibility. Some people foresaw this a while ago, but they went on drilling, both on direttissimas and on other climbs, until the lost the taste for climbing: why dare, why gamble, when you can proceed in perfect safety? And so they become the prophets of the direttissima: "Don't waste your time on classic routes - learn to drill, learn to use your equipment. Be cunning: If you want to be successful, use every means you can get round the mountain. The era of direttissima has barely begun: every peak awaits its plumbline route. There's no rush, for a mountain can't run away - nor can it defend itself."

Maybe many of you clowns should be relocated back to Europe or wherever you came from.