Raindawg

The mission is accomplished when the perp's correct their mistake.

Dude...you got a really dirty mouth for a young guy and trust me, that's not an asset and it won't serve you well in the long run. To the point...the route IS a mistake....it was power-drilled in a wilderness area. It doesn't have the right to exist and in my opinion, correctly so. Mistakes should be corrected if possible. It's possible, preferably by the ones who make them.

My driving 56 miles per hour today doesn't necessarily affect the preservation of wilderness in the future for my grandchildren. Find another analogy.

If you're referring to me, than the answer is a clear "No". Thanks for the incoherent babbling. Got anything to add to the topic under discussion?

Thanks Ivan and Pete H. for your civilized imput. Removing "I.B." would certainly be a chore and would likely take several days of hard work. I have the motivation but unfortunately not the time unless it was a group effort involving several others. I think Step 1 would be to propose that the guys who put it up, take it down. There are also ways to conduct "restoration" in the process. Would anyone afterwards attempt to restore it by hand-drilling? Given the amount of work it probably took to establish it even with a power drill, I doubt anyone would have the stamina. It's an illegal route and in my opinion, it should be illegal.

The moderator with his head in the sand, "Off-White", decided to shut down the revival of the "Infinite Bliss" topic. I think it's still an issue and tossing it into the garbage pit of spray (where most ethical topics end up) doesn't make it go away. I was very serious when I posted the following: As reported in Rock and Ice: The alpine rap-bolting "route"-setters made a "mistake" with their outdated maps. Now they should do the decent thing and fix their "mistake": They themselves should remove the route. So...without resorting to crass name-calling or other distractions, why might you agree or disagree with the idea of those guys cleaning up their mistake?

Hey sprayer: your personal attack on me is not a contribution to the topic...in fact, the topic is just an excuse for you to spray on someone you despise. By the way, none of the tools I use for "busting into graves, crypts, tombs, coffins, and the like" would be appropriate for erasing bolts. But here are some good tips, including appropriate tools and materials: Bolt Chopping Instructions Don't forget to read the introduction.

As reported in Rock and Ice: The alpine rap-bolting "route"-setters made a "mistake" with their outdated maps. Now they should do the decent thing and fix their "mistake": They themselves should remove the route.

47?????? You think you're old?????? Are you kidding me? Dude! There are loads of people on this site your age or a lot older who are still heavily involved and climb at a high level. 47????? Get over that! I used to work with a guy who was 40 years older than you who could keep up with me on mountain hikes...and I wasn't shuffling either. You're still a pup. And if some 20 year old doesn't want to climb with you, too bad for them; you wouldn't want to be around someone with that kind of attitude anyway and there are lots of other folks to meet and have adventures with. Carry on. P.S. 47?????? It's today's 32.

I do all of that and more, but not as much as I would like, as is the case with many of us. And usually with a handful of people I trust and really enjoy being with. I'm also able to apply my climbing skills to my work, on occasion, which is always an adventure. And I teach a mountaineering course once a year every Fall...so if the question is, do I still climb? The answer is...I surely do.

Hey! Thanks for recognizing our power and influence over your life! The weather's looking sad today so I'm afraid we'll have to hold back on our approval for you to do anything in the mountains until the weather improves. But you do have our approval to mow a couple of lawns around here and make us dinner! And when you're done with that, pope needs a shoe-shine.

As I don't consult nor follow the kabbalah, I really don't care. Perhaps you can ask this guy: P.S. You're constant bringing up of Jews and Judaism in your personal attacks is naive, noteworthy and disturbing.

That would be your ignorant self in the hallway. Hey "Rainier expert." Maybe you can ask the families of these folks if they think you're funny: Ghosts of Rainier They still meet every August in Enumclaw for a memorial service.

Sounds like the rude chatter of an envious man.

And how have our ethics and style opinions been IMPOSED upon you? What? They haven't? Have either of us stopped you from siege climbing at the crags (if that's what you're in to)? A bunch of you all seem 'fraid about ideas and such!

What's that Dwayner is holding ? It's a bottle of Joose that might just spark you enough to get up those extra couple of thousand feet to the summit of Rainier. Give it a try!

10994!

You must "give a sh*t", or think we have extraordinary influence, because you continue to read our posts and comment on the subject. 11639 tiresome posts....now that's tiresome.

Reads like a whole lot of work for not a whole lot of clever. "Yo! Allegorically and metaphorically unsound!"

So don't adhere to it! No one's forcing anyone to not hangdog/siege climb. We're presenting another perspective which is apparently some sort of crime on a climbing "discussion" site. If we think you're a stylistically-weak WUSS, who cares???? The way some of these vulgar clowns act around here, they must be a) foul-mouthed 13 years old, and/or b) think we have the power of the universe to take away their slacker version of fun! Siege climb all you want, and pretend you're good to go, if that's what get's you all excited! Go get it, cowboy! Yee ha! Make drilling bolts a casual and routine habit on public property, though, and then it does become an issue. Otherwise, WUSS AWAY! "Back off, ground-up, trad-mongering low-impact substantiators! We's workin' on our 'project! Take!"

"Or you can go outside and take up that dumb-downed unecological version of climbing called 'sport'!"

No style, no ethics...now that's mediocrity! Throw in a bunch of ad hoc assumptions and pop-psychology along with a load of crass personal insults and you've shared a whole lot of nothing with us. But I bet you feel better about yourself now, eh?(- that's my own version of pop-psychology to explain your violent reaction to other's perspectives.)

Hang-dog all you want, dude. That's your problem. This is a style issue. Like using tape, having pre-placed gear, beta, etc. There are varying opinions on this stuff. Nearly every "sport" has style issues. This is one of them. Get it?

That's right...because I think it's relevant and no one else seems to be able to distinguish the difference between that and siege climbing. You're really, really very vulgar. You seem to have a rough time handling contrary perspectives. Are you sure about that first part? You're woefully ignorant. You got that part right!

Rain....please tell me what is wrong with this style of climbing? Besides the bolts....because I have sieged the hell out of certain cracks that I wanted to send....all on gear. O.K. dude...I'll try to explain it simply. I kind of like you even though you come off as Forrest Gump with typing skills...Actually I think you're smarter than most people around here give you credit. It's like this...can you walk up to a 5.9/5.10 and get your fat body up that thing? Good for you! You're a 5.9/5.10 climber. Now if you did that same climb, and had to rehearse the difficult moves over and over again until you got it wired, is that the same same thing as having the ability to approach it and do the route because you're up for it? Are you now a 5.9/5.10 climber? I don't think so. I believe the same thing about many of these so-called "cutting edge" routes. Most of them require weeks of rehearsal, that is, siege climbing, which in my book, at least, is not the same as having the ability to "on-site" something because you have the developed strength and skill. Early in my climbing career, if someone was "free-climbing" a route, and hung off the rope: "hang-dogging", they were often booed and told to come back when they were up to the challenge. I happen to agree with this philosophy. I also believe that even you, Kevbone, can climb 5.12 and above given enough rehearsal time. It might take you months,rather than weeks, but you might very well pull off a 5.13. And for those who claim that sport-climbing and hang-doggin' has allowed them to get strong enough to do hard routes, there are enough indoor gyms around these days to help you "get strong" where there's no excuse to express your inadequacies on real rock by siege climbing. Can't do the route without falling? Pull the rope and start over or come back when you're good enough, but don't equate free-climbing with siege climbing....it's an illusion of numbers. There still aren't alot of climbers who can do anything 5.13 or above without resorting to rehearsal. Does it hurt me if they want to spend their lives that way...spending a month rehearsing a 50 foot climb? No, I just think it's pathetic. Even if it's done on trad gear. Don't confuse the abilty to on-site with the abilty to to rehearse a climb into submission. It's quite a boundary. But folks should recognize it for what it is. Just my opinion. Carry on, 'bone.