Raindawg

And it didn't stop YOU from replying! Cry away and add you to the mix!

It started at least a decade before the '90's and it remains the worst thing that ever happened to American climbing. Climbers should have been smart enough and embraced "clean-climbing" rather than being seduced by the dumb-downed, cheap-gratifications of rap-bolted sport-"climbing".

Dude, seriously? Your a grumpy ol' wanker. I can picture the walls of your room- covered in posters of modern sport pro's sending hard routes on fixed draws, with dart holes and targets painted on the faces. Holes in the wall. Dark red lighting- aside from the bright glow of your CC.com homepage. errrrr.... "you're taking chances anytime you clip someone else's stuff or jug their fixed lines. Your choice!" - Exactly Raindawg. So you don't have to climb here, since you can choose! yah,dude...no worries I won't be "hanging out" there. (literally, like so many of you in rehearsal/siege mode..hanging off your fixed pro until you wire it into submission!) ....but true to form, the best you can come up with as a response is some sort of curious/fantasy personal attack?...true to form, "dude"! Leave your mess everywhere, eh? The rest of the outdoor world has passed you by. Even snowmobilers tend to pick up their beer cans these days!.

I stand by my comments which I believe are universally applicable. I encourage that anyone with similar views to my own avoid and, in fact, boycott areas that maintain such "communities" with such "ethics" and "style"...if you're up to it.

Time for the alternative perspective you "open-minded" blokes won't tolerate. As if your self-gratifying, "free-stylin'", sport-bolting wasn't bad enough, you brag about replacing the fixed draws. Consider this but I'm sure most of you won't because it addresses your dumbed-down, leave a big trace version of "climbing" as less them "sporting". a) fixed draws only emphasize the fact that the climb is too difficult for you because you aren't able to clip and remove your own garbage. b) you're taking chances anytime you clip someone else's stuff or jug their fixed lines. Your choice! There are a growing number of cases that prove this true. c) read the interesting comments about "PermaDraws" in the latest Rock 'n Ice. Not everyone thinks the concept is cool.

You know who's beating the dead horse? All them folks praising the condescending dudes with the camera. Including lots of "I would have given that hippy a beat-down" talk. I'm just providing an alternative perspective which I feel is worth repeating amongst the pages of mostly one-sided congratulations permeating two threads now. Damn-dude. Who say's I'm actively trying to "win converts" and why are you so concerned about my social skills?. Read the last sentence of your post and tell me who lacks social skills. Ya...they are a big deal...and the reasons why have been spelled out on here on cc.com many, many times. Suggest what you like, but I have neither the time to actively chop, nor am I willing to put up with some of the violence-spewing cavemen on this web-site or in the climbing "community" at-large, but I'm not opposed to it. Ultimately, if climbers refuse to clean up their act, The Man will step in (as they have at Joshua Tree and many other areas) and will regulate or eliminate bolting-at-will on public land or will fine folks for leaving their crap hanging off the rock for days. One last thing...if you're sick of the "horse-beating", you are always free to skip any and all posts authored by "Raindawg". Have a nice day.

Here's another scenario: Indignant Smith dudes: "What are you doing up there?" "Why are you cleaning the draws?" Raindawg: "I'm cleaning up the selfish, route-blocking mess some siege-climbers seemed to have abandoned." Indignant Smith dudes: "Do you know who draws those are? Are they yours?" Raindawg: "No I don't nor do I care. They are being taken down and the owners can claim them near the the base or with the park officials." Indignant Smith dudes: "Those are our draws and we climb 5.14a." Raindawg: "If you can prove that they are really yours, you can have them now in hopes that in the future you'll be more thoughtful about gratuitously leaving your crap suspended from the rock until you feel like you're through with it. If you can't prove they're yours, you can try to convince the park officials and while you're at it, explain why you think it's appropriate to do what you did." Indignant Smith dudes: "Yah, but you don't understand! Me and my friends are working on a 5.14a! You know how hard that is? We can do whatever we want! It's Smith Rocks!"

Are these really the best "analogies" you guys could come up with????? Urban bike racks and city signs??? Weak!

Zero tolerance, eh? You'd sacrifice a few years of your life in jail to beat down some dude alledgedly poaching a wad of arguably abandoned quick draws on public land??? seriously! WWJD? Calm down and read a couple of these: Matthew 5:38-42 Luke 6:27-31 And who is "scum" from a Christian point of view? Everybody. That's where the message comes in.

Hmmm, isn't that Don Ryan in the background? Are things really always what they seem? Sorry, I was looking to put this someplace for Raindawg, but didn't' want to bump the other thread where it would have been more appropriate:-) Looks like billcoe be fishing for some attention and at the same time, aggravating thread-drift. I'll take the bait and say that it ain't Ryan in the background of the ridiculous picture you posted above nor a fair representation of folk-hero Nichols who has more fans than you could ever imagine. Did someone just give you a copy of Photoshop Elements for Christmas? Nice try...you'll get better at it. In the meantime, here's my impression of you and the intent of your post: You got some attention. Happy now?

We have different definitions of "caught". At some point it could be argued as community service, especially if the gear is actually unusable. But an enlighten individual such as your self should understand modern civilized society doesn't except just taking property. It has to be turned over to proper authorities and an attempt made to return it. Failing to do so negates the finders right to claim it if later the owner can't be found. Which is it? Which set of rules are you arguing? Written or unwritten rules? Fine! Take'em down and turn them over to The Man, and let the "heroes of Smith" explain to them why they left hundreds of dollars worth of gear hanging for days on public land. Smithster: "But dude! We were workin' on a 14a!!" The Man: "huh???"

No it doesn't. Quick-draws can't testify in court, but a black eye and a punched mouth sure can. Lots of vigilantes on this site, apparently. Three cheers for the climbing "community"! It's not plain and simple. Collecting booty has a long tradition in climbing and you can run across all kinds of stuff on the crags and mountains, although it would be nice to make a reasonable attempt to find the owner if the situation suggests that reasonable. If the siege-climbers at Smith had pulled their "draws" it wouldn't have even been an issue. Again, I'd leave their stuff hanging on a bolt well off the ground or turn it into ranger where they can ask for it back.

No it wasn't. But I got some observations. 1) I watched the video..it was disturbing several different ways. The "draw-poaching" guy wasn't straight forward, panicked, and spouted out a bunch of nonsense about worn 'biners and such. He should have just 'fessed up that he was collecting booty from seemingly abandoned gear. 2) the people who confronted this guy were extremely condescending (talking to this guy as if he was 5 years old) and justifying their leaving of gear because it was a big, bad, "5.14" or whatever. Well, another prespective would say that if you left your gear, and a guy could easily aid-climb it with a stick-clip because the bolts were so close together, then basically the so-called "5.14 climbers" were in the process of siege-climbing a route way over their heads. So maybe they should have left a sign at the base that said "Do Not Disturb, Siege Climb In Progress". On the other hand, I think it's inappropriate to take things that don't belong to you when there is a grey area, that is, the possibility that someone might actually be coming back for their abandoned gear, fixed rope, etc. But I would be tempted to clean the left-behind debris and leave the draws clipped several bolts off the ground, or leave it with the rangers who might have their own opinion about such a dubious practice. You so 5.14 tough? Have some respect and pull your gear when you're done playing for the day. You don't own the public space and you don't have a right to dominate it until you feel you're "finished with it". You got "the moves"? It shouldn't be a problem now, should it! And all of you violence-spouting "tough guys" talking 'bout punching the dude out and such....go back into your savage caves cuz reality says, indignant or not, you gonna do jail time if you act-out like a thug. Guaranteed! You think the judge cares about your special "project" on public land????

Yah....I've spoken...but you'll have to shut down the sporto scene yourself....I'm only adding perspective...which you don't seem to appreciate....so march on with the rest of them.

Nice reply, caveman! Brilliant use of profanty and a gratuitous ad hominem attack which among educated people adds up to nothing. I'd remove your quickdraws too...but I absolutely wouldn't steal them....I'd leave them in a heap at the bottom of the climb so you could reclaim them and use them for whatever. They aren't mine....just as the rock isn't exclusively yours.

Grow up. You abandoned gear on public land. He's collecting the booty. Why do you expect that you can leave your junk affixed to public space (until you feel like removing it) because you deemed it "HARD" and perhaps some sort of future "masterpiece"? You want to be "HARD" and environmental at the same time? Then PULL your gear after each of your rehearsals and you probably will offend less people AND guarantee that you'll get your gear back! Take it to court and I'll bet you'll LOSE BIG TIME!Slap him in the face? You still livin' in a cave? Who are the "Knuckledraggers?? Take that to court and YOU WiLL LOSE BIG TIME!

H.R.H. BIG LOU!!! No question about it.

Hey Matt. Thanks for the great info. I remember seeing you and Paul here and there "back in the day" and looking up to you guys as cutting-edge on rock and in the alpine. I was impressed by your comment: As many around this site know, I seem to be one of the few still willing to stick up for the now-failed clean-climbing revolution. With that perspective, my opinion is that you should leave the route intact and bolt-free, at least as a tribute to the great Paul Boving. Those few or many who are willing and capable can step up to the original challenge you guys boldly established.

I wonder how many of you sporto's would complain if, or more likely when, via ferrata's become common. Safer, more dumbed-down and even a shorter learning-curve than sport-climbing! How about a nice cabled and laddered girdle traverse of El-Cap? Or a "progressive" route parallel to The Nose that the "average" climber could enjoy? "Hey you! Got a problem with this???"

What an utterly shallow and naive response; more insult than substance as usual. So care to address how sport-bolting jives with a leave-little/no-trace ethic subscribed by most every other outdoor sport? Feel free not to answer until you've thought about it seriously for a while.

I guess you didn't really have that many better things to do because you posted a response. Go on your way now.

Seeking attention today? I'm actually off to the wet mountains....late...for some exercise, so I'm going to keep this short for now. As repeated numerous times here: 1) From my perspective, I advocate "clean climbing" which is the practice of leaving as little trace as possible of your passing. I don't know how old you are so I don't know if you were even around or interested when that concept took off. A version of this is practiced today by probably every outdoor with an exception being sport-climbing. Bolts should be FEW and a last resort and each one should require ethical contemplation as to its impact. From my perspective, lines composed solely of closely-spaced bolts are irresponsible. I think it's better to leave the rock alone then to "create" such a "route". Do you think I'm the only one who thinks this way? Why are their bolt and power-drill restrictions in Joshua Tree and many other places? Have I ever clipped a bolt (cue the childish smokescreen ad hominem attack). Who hasn't? But they are perhaps best justified as fixed belay/rappel/top-rope anchors to avoid an accumulation of even more garbage. And as a rare publicly accountable last resort. Do I climb sport climbs? (routes solely composed of closely spaced bolts) No. I don't. I boycott them for the reasons described above and encourage others to likewise do so. Is sport-climbing fun? No doubt! Convenient (and profitable!) in so many different ways. Driving a dirt-bike around the Wonderland Trail would be fun too...but again there's a principle involved. Another popular comment around here: the "it's all good", "get with it, everyone's doing it", "it's here to stay".....blah, blah, blah. That's really, really shallow. I thought I'd keep this short but looks like I lost half an hour of outdoor time....so I'm outta here. So, back to an earlier question: would you care to discuss how unrestrained sport-bolting jives with a leave-little/no-trace ethic subscribed by most every other outdoor sport? - "Raindawg" P.S. You clearly didn't understand my point about rehearsal but I have no time for this. Instead, you may enjoy this picture from the Mt. Rainier web-cam c.11:20 AM today:

Most of you folks...including "El Jefe", "RuMR, "Drederek" etc.(kevbone is in his own special category) seem to prefer to attack the messengers (including "Raindawg" and Joseph H.) rather than addressing the message. How about discussing the original topic: "trash" on the crags? Any of you care to discuss how unrestrained sport-bolting jives with a leave-little/no-trace ethic subscribed by most every other outdoor sport? The Jungian attack was especially weak, as if to "prove" that if one adamantly subscribes to a particular position apart than the majority,then one is psychologically disfuncational...typical Jungian flakiness. (continue your studies and intellectual growth and check back in a few years and see if you still believe that nonsense). Many of you seem to think that the end (climbing some "high-end" difficult routes, usually after repeated rehearsals - which speaks for itself) somehow justifies the means...unrestrained bolting. Extremely immature and selfish, I'd say!

And you seem to be deaf. Sorry for me? What you wrote above is SAD! Got a problem with having principles???? By the way, change doesn't automatically = "progress" or "good". The average backpacker starting at least 30 years ago, if not well before, has had a far clearer understanding of outdoor ethics than the typical modern sport climber. How many other outdoor sports find it perfectly legitimate to add stuff and leave stuff, e.g. bolts and quick-draws? The clean-climbing revolution was overwhelmed by the safety, short learning-curve and convenience of sport-climbing. Proud of yourself? And you know them all, eh? And you also find yourself comfortable defining who is a "REAL" climber, too? Do you issue a certificate? I shake my head in wonder and dismay. I read all of yours. They didn't say much.

There are apparently hundreds, power-drilled in a wilderness area, as you probably know, as you seem to be proud of having endorsed such practices by climbing that atrocity. Someday you might be smart enough to understand that it's not a matter of scale, but a principle.