JosephH

If I'm interested in red-heads I go to the Crux where the girls have figured out they don't have to don those nasty, obfusticating harnesses and no one has to sort out knots.

In the NW you won't find such routes, they are available in other places on other rock types. Also, there is a monkey freedom of dynamic movement on steep jugs that is not available on steep crimps. Personally, I find steep crimps boring and did back in the mid-70s as well when we were doing .12s/.13s. I'd rather bump out to flat roofs then work the tedium of steep crimps, but then I'm way more into monkey business than the endless tedium of crimpfests (not to mention I have old, damaged fingers) - others have different proclivities.

I've been waiting for them to install one of those new TraXmatic Climbing Hold Systems. You know, the one where when you weight a hold it slides up on a track 18" so you can get the next hold and then resets on unweighting. It's all the rage at the geezer gyms in the bigger retirement communities.

The youngin's always say the cutest damn things...

Unguyed cables, uphill - that's a solid walk. Not sure what 'world record' as I'm pretty sure there have been a couple of longer walks decades ago in Europe by a pair of brothers who stopped and ate lunch in the middle. Spectacular photo of them doing lunch above this Valley. Don't think the image is on-line yet though.

When the side you'd be dropping branches from is over a structure then that further complicates the job. You'd have to line down all the timber you wanted to unweight and climbing / limbing / lining is yet another skill set and also requires a competent ground person as well.

Naw, it's mostly the kids setting the routes. Tell Gary it's a proxy whine from me - he's heard it all before...

Tell Gary to please get his kids to put a jug line you can do laps on up the main overhang...

What bars...? Both of those saws are weak and are going to have short bars which will necessitate a more complicated cut which makes matters that much more difficult and dangerous. I'd really recommend scouting up a bigger saw with at least a 36" bar. Some thing on this order (Huskie 372xp, but with a 36" instead of that 28" bar) would be the minimum sort of deal I'd want to launch at this tree with: Oh, and you want the chain absolutely razor sharp, preferably with a second sharp one on standby... P.S. I edited that post above with more discussion and links to wedges...

Two wedges would probably be just fine, but in a big tree I like to be able to 'steer' things a bit if I need to. You can start with regular redhead plastic felling wedges, but you're quickly going to need 2-3" of wedge height so you'll have to switch to steel splitting wedges right away and maybe even something like an Estwing Estwing E-5 Wedge for the center coup d'état wedge (which would require you to [progressively] move the side wedges closer to the hinge as well). Also, on a back lean I'd tend to bring the back cut off the horizontal 10-15 degrees (max) to make it easier to swing at the wedges. In the end, regardless of any other complicating factors, it's all in the hinge - be as precise as possible with your cuts and don't rush. A tree like this you want to bring down with the wedges - not the saw, so don't oversaw the back cut. I usually recommend these as well: And maybe get back to us with your saw specs, pictures from the three sides, and the lean / segment math (or here) on this tree...

Don't even think about doing it without at least two metal wedges, preferably three and a sledge versus regular hammer. This is where you ideally want a person cutting, one on the line tension, and one on the wedges.

I ran tree crews in heart of downtown Chicago removing large diameter (4'+, many lightning-struck) trees for a couple of years and dropping a tree of 3'+ diameter with any significant back lean is serious business. You need to get the wedging (segments) math spot on, use the appropriate aluminum / steel wedges, and not over tension the line if you use one. Then there's the matter of tensioning line diameter - it has to be sufficient to the task - your typical wank come-along isn't going to cut it. We typically used 1-1/14" bull ropes tied off to a semi truck for the task, again with a delicate touch as you don't want to over tension it and blow the hinging. Rope also has the added benefit of dynamic tension as opposed to the static tension of wire. In reality it's a big job with a lot of stuff to assemble to do it right and you need reliable help who know what they're doing so I'd also vote going with a pro crew who cuts large [deciduous] trees on a daily basis...

Whomever it is climbs hard, but it's just a lamentable amount of chalk painting every single hold solid white and then some. They have to be strong to hang and chalk that much...

Exactly. If I were BB, I would less concerned about shouting commands etc or taking AA off belay as it is a moot point once the rope is pulled up to you. You could begin breaking down the anchor... I interpret the situation quite differently - I would very much recommend, on running out of rope but still belaying, you do nothing beyond informing the leader they are out of rope, so long as you have some form of workable communication with the leader. DO NOT STOP BELAYING, DO NOT REMOVE THE ROPE FROM THE BELAY DEVICE, DO NOT BREAK DOWN THE ANCHOR - DO NOTHING - do not initiate any kind of action whatsoever; let the leader do that. If they need slack they're out of luck, you warned them they were running out of rope and then ended up out of rope. And if they want you to stop belaying and start simuclimbing it's on them to say so; ditto for breaking down the belay and anchor ('off belay'). In this scenario it's the leader's responsibility to initiate any change in the status quo. Now that scenario, and your reaction, changes entirely if the leader is incommunicato for any reason. In that case - and as Marc and Sherri are basically saying - if the leader gets to the end of the rope and you can feel through the rope that they aren't stopping or have started jerking on the rope then you need to quit belaying, bust the anchor, and get your ass in gear climbing as quickly as humanly possible. This is where there is an art and skill to belaying with regard to feeling / knowing what an out-of-sight leader is doing through the rope. Holding a [very] slight, continuous tension on the rope with your non-brake hand allows you to maintain an active connection with the leader. Over time and enough yardage, particularly with the same partner, you should be able to learn roughly what the leader is up to at any given moment. That ability breaks down on some terrain and in situations where the leader slings the rope path poorly resulting in heavy rope drag, but for most pitches it works pretty well and is an important skill to learn.

First and foremost, BB should not yell "on belay" in this circumstance. If BB is getting impatient and wants to know what's going on they should ask - if, as you say, you have line-of-sight communication. Second, how does one even get in such a conundrum if you do have both line-of-sight and radios...?

I can certainly empathize with the feeling, and could probably think of lots instances of stupidity and excess myself, but I kind of keep coming back to what seems like the unavoidability of stupidity and excess whenever large groups of humans congregate to do something 'productive'. Sure saw no shortage of it in Catholic church, Navy, College, Digital Equipment Corp., etc., etc. Maybe the real question is are there any large human institutions that don't exhibit those behaviors?

Bill, I have to ask, are there any cases you can cite where you think it was/is for the public (or your) good that the state or federal government hires and utilizes scientists for identifying and protecting ecological or cultural resources? I sometimes am genuinely confused as to how to interpret this basic statement of yours when you've used it. I usually take it as a Libertarian "all gov't is bad" sort of deal. I guess what confuses me a bit is how you think things like this should be handled and by whom? Also, never sure if you aren't just railing against predictable human and institutional behavior / reality - the stuff that basically makes guys like you and I unfit for larger corporate or government service - i.e. 'normal' institutional behavior whether the entity in question is a corporation, government, union, non-profit, religion, or even club of more than about five humans in size. Sort of the behavioral B.S. overhead associated with all human institutions. But isn't that B.S. overhead just part and parcel with getting things done, even if inefficiently? Just curious anyway, as while I basically agree with some of the basic tenents I think I hear in that quote, I'm also not sure how one can expect us as a society to deal with 'institutional' issues or wield collective power otherwise, or without the baggage that I guess I've come to view of as normal societal / group behavior. Edit: Also, I suppose those jobs might be 'cushy', IF you can tolerate all the intolerable bullshit that comes with a government job. Definitely wouldn't be cushy from my perspective, it would be torture. Edit: And of course this question is coming from me - a totally non-group person, but with just a masterful feel for interpersonal communication and group dynamics (yeah, right)...

Gotta go with Bill on this one, except I vote for the sooner rather than later. I've replaced two year-old plated Powers in the Gorge that were already well-rusted and replaced lots of ten year-old Powers at Beacon that were already essentially dissolved trash - many of which looked fine from the outside. If you're putting in 3/8" plated Powers 5pc bolts west of the Cascades you're just sinking what will most likely be garbage in a 5-15 year timeframe. Hell of a legacy to leave on your route.

Well, pretty much all of the folks - from Reagan to W - who Friedman was minion or mentor to would vociferously argue the point. The mess we're in is a direct result of the [often naive] belief that 'free market capitalism' left to its own devices wouldn't devolve into what is essentially extended criminal empires.

"Corporations, absent approriate government oversight, are indistinguishable from organized crime." Just substitute 'free market capitalism' for 'corporations' in the above quote...

Good suggestions; will put them on the list. Ivan, that would be great, particularly on Flightime. John, have to join the crowd on YW p3. Over a couple of years I checked and reset or replaced all the pins out at Beacon that most folks besides Ivan would ever run across (with the exception of the two up on Stone Rodeo) and those YW p3 pins are bomb (and classic relics). What I find most interesting about that belay is that almost no one seems to redirect through pieces in the obvious large crack right above where you first come up onto the ledge; they instead incur a ton of rope drag letting their ropes cut through the moss on the ground, wierd. And interestingly, the two most problematic of all the checked and reset pins out at Beacon were the YW p1 and p4 pins - I'd say both have only about an 70-80% chance of holding a significant fall even after having been reset as well as one could (and the p4 angle is entirely unnecessary). Also, if it were up to me a lot of YW bolts would simply disappear - but obviously it's not. I wasn't planning on adding any anchors at all, though that has been on my radar for some time. I'd defer to a consensus on that one, but it's a pretty ratty affair as is. I haven't gotten back on Borderline yet this year, but those and the Second Wind bolts could probably stand a refresh. I do still have an unfinished anchor agenda which mostly consists of the lines left of Pipeline on around Jensens Ridge (gotta kill the oak over there this year) so those are already on the list. If there are bad existing protection bolts on Jensen's then it would make sense to hit them at the same time as well as check all the pins across that last sweep. All - those are good suggestions. I'll be starting out slow and probably doing most of this once it starts getting chilly so we'll have plenty of time to think about it and consider each of them before they happen. Volunteers are definitely welcome.

I have fifty 1/2" stainless bolts and matching Fixe SS hangers. The only thing I have in mind for sure is fixing a couple of bad bolts on YW and Flightime - beyond that I'm open to suggestions for what else is worth considering replacing. Seems like some odds and ends would also be good candidates like the bolt on RR, etc.

Ha, might as well as shit all over it. Have to take the camera out...

No, it would not. I would not because it would be totally irrelevant to the topic of what it's currently like climbing 'Whiteout'. If you were out there today to climb it, even you would likely be appalled.

Bitching about standard chalking would be droll. Whomever this was solidly caked every single hold on the first pitch and I mean solidly as in see no rock at at all for an area larger than the size of a hand and with enough extra so that clouds rise with every subsequent use of the hold. The first hold on the pitch was caked 12" x 5" solid and every other hold was essentially that bad on a slightly smaller scale. The call was from an old, chalk-using Beacon local who was just getting in a lap on Borderline and had to wade through p1 duststorm. 'Whiteout' would be more appropriate name for the route at the moment.