marylou

Here's what my dues pay for: Hiring hall/dispatch Office rent Wages of dispatchers, Business Reps, Office staff Office supplies and overhead Here’s what I get: Representation for collective bargaining, grievance/termination Collectivized health care and retirement We are, as all unions are, required to figure out what percentage of our expenditures goes toward things other than the things listed above, e.g. donating money to a political candidate. Let’s say it came out to be .05% in a particular year. So if you were a worker somewhere who didn’t want to join the union, you would pay 99.5%, to my 100% as a full union member. As an objector, you are getting all of the benefits (collective bargaining, representation, health and retirement), but not paying for the union to contribute to political causes you may not agree with. In the case of my local, we have a separate fund for charity donations so you won’t be paying into that either. Apprenticeship stands alone, as does the Defense Fund. I don't think Beck objectors have to pay into the Defense Fund. Rob, I hope that’s enough information to make it make sense to you. There are intricacies to the Beck laws that I’m not familiar with, as I’ve never had to work on crunching the numbers to get that % determined. Apparently it’s a big pain in the butt though. This whole thing with Business Reps and pension skimming is something I can in no way speak to. More and more unions, mine included, have 401(k) plans administered by the rules described in Taft/Hartley. I think the only people who could embezzle from one of those is perhaps the administrator. Besides the very public Enron thing, I’ve not heard of 401(k) plans being stolen from, and in the Enron case it was not some union rep doing it!

Sweet! Thanks for that, Kurt.

BLS data is generally not a good yardstick. In contract negotiations we often prefer to not use their data. The CPI numbers are particulary problematic. The weighting system that they use to determine CPI is not all that accurate. That said, there is not a good alternative either. Just don't expect any argument made on BLS numbers to be very accurate either. TBay as I have explained before, twice now I think, no one has to join or pay money that will be used to promote the political agenda of the union. On these so-called union fat cats.....well, I've known a ton of union reps, and not a one of them is getting rich or buying houses in Park City.

Hm. I am represented by the union that represents stagehands, so you must be confusing me with someone else. We are neither artsy-fartsy, nor off-Broadway. Oh, and we are not performers either.

Believe it or not, this is a two-way street. Union leadership can assist management in doing the same thing with a troublesome member.

Fortunately only on this subject. People want to trash unions, they first oughtta to start with the facts.

yep. it's over? They don't do that any more? Heck, my union must be horribly out of step! Huh? That's crazy! You really think unions want to put their signatories out of business? Then where will the workers work? I can't speak for people with desk jobs, but blue coller working environments still aren't all that safe. For one thing, enforcement of safety regs is pretty lax at times. In my work we all have to be super diligent, union workers and our managers alike, to make the best attempt at a safe working enviroment. We still have accidents though. Such as... So unionized workers are not honest? Nor is their work? Dang, I'm pretty wiped out today for putting in a dishonest night of work last night! Dunno about that, the non-union competition nips at our heels all of the time. By your argument, so are the minumum wage, the right to unionize, the 40 hour work week, and all of the health and safety regs put forth by the gummint. It sure would bring the cost of US labor down! So, would you say we should move to do away with all of those, too?

Good question Jaee. So, now if you were the one who got caught in an avalanche, how many people would you want to have looking for you?

...and Mr. Radon presses on in this argument, stubbornly unwilling to be distracted by the facts.....

Nope, they don't have to join. Says right here below in your article: This is just what I explained before. Don't have to join, but in a union shop, you will have to instead pay agency fees, which is equal to what a union member pays minus money spent on political stuff. There it is again. Above is an explanation of how Beck works. Pretty common sentiment among union members. Especially if the dues are high, like in my case. Small union, hiring hall, very expensive to run. Nor do unions like to have to enforce the language. "They" is just a bunch of people. That's all a union is. Perhaps if Mr. Ilian had been more actively involved in the process, the outcome would have been different. PS....just to clarify. This is perhaps arguable, but it's my opinion that agency requirements are not a real hot issue among union members. Hot issues are typically wages, working conditions, and health care. These days add outsourcing/subcontracting as a problem bigger than just Boeing.

Great, Greg, now you are an expert on unions. Perhaps you'd like to share your obvious wealth of information on them with us. I've only got 17 years of union experience, why not tell us all how it's done! Kind of a silly thing to be arguing, so I didn't address it. Pretty much all of what I've seen has been far less glamourous than this. Contract negotiations, union meetings, difficult discussions among the members about how to save our health insurance (usually by voluntarily taking a pay freeze), dealing with the improper (or proper) termination of members, trying to stem the tide of companies increasingly going non-union, putting together a 401(k) plan and then having to sell it to our signatories....really, Greg, it's not at all like the movies!

My union absolutely allows for this. Labor contracts establish minimums for pay and working conditions. We've already been over this. Unions don't do this. You have to pay the local for the cost of collective bargaining. You do NOT have to join the union. Let's try to argue the facts here instead of making things up. You're delusional if you think that's how a labor union is run.

Angelina Jolie managed to look like major trailer trash at the Oscars tonight with a gorgeous dress and a big ol' tat on her upper arm.

The geek, I mean, er Schroeder. I was really hoping for Lucy.

Eww!

Anyone want to go pull some plastic at the Seattle Vert World this afternoon or early evening?

They have not outlawed the wearing of shoes here yet, but if W gets reelected, well, it's certainly a possibility. Don't you have laundry to do or something?

Chatter time!

TBay's story rings true. Workers are exceptionally greedy. Here's an example: My labor union organized a theatre's stagehands about three years ago. These workers were all getting between 7 and 8 dollars an hour with no benefits. I guess the Xterra wasn't enough for those workers either. The rates went up a lot in terms of %, to 11-13$/hr if I recall, but the wage after they unionized was still pretty modest. They now have the same shitty HMO health insurance I've had since the 80s. It's the best we can afford though. We control the Health and Welfare trust in partnership with our employers. Same with the 401(k) plan, which is mostly contributions we make on our own behalf. As far as white middle class men saying affirmative action is BS.....well that speaks for itself. And with regard to closed shops, people are not required to join the union, the law allows for them to pay an amount equal to what the members pay for dues minus any money spent on political action. We have three or four people in our union who do this. That said, if you don't want to work in a union shop, work elsewhere. There are plenty of places to work where there is no collective bargaining agreement.

And don't worry at all about YOUR job being outsourced to a nearby prison....that could NEVER happen.

Yes, but ONLY on the matter of being a good driver. I think his "truck" argument is a load of crap.

It's all about how you drive anyway. Learn how to drive a fucking car and practice your alertness skills every time you put the key in the ignition. Long time motorcyclist here, just get frustrated with people's inability to properly use their vehicles.

Why are you all so surprised this is happening? I mean YAH, it's really stupid, and is gutting the middle class, but hey, it's capitalism. It's all about making the most money! This current fiscal pyramid scheme has the rich getting richer at least into the short term forseeable future.

Where have all the gapers gone?

Uhh, the majority of us are in Seattle or PDX....that should tell you a little about how liberal we are as a general group. Greg is one of our special kids. We try to be nice to him even though he thinks poor people are lazy.