Dane

Funny thinking about this converstaion over the last couple of days. Leashless and the new screws have been as big or bigger revolution in gear and techniques as we had back in the early '70s. Hard water ice was just then beginning to get climbed. Aid was an early option and not everyone even used leashes yet on their tools. Freeing long pillars of vertical ice came soon after. Alpine water fall ice and then thin ice, then thin alpine water ice came next with thin alpine ice following. Ice pro was pretty much non exsistant and run outs were the norm. Leaders just did not fall. What is easily accessable now to beginning climbers few of us envisioned as old hands then. 30 year from now we'll all be looking back at our time now as "another revolution" into the new world of modern mixed. Jump started by top ropes, bolts and sport climbing, hard rock, with modern antler tools and mono points.

Damn! Thanks Kevin it was a dbl post. Jammed this weekend but we'll get out at some point in time. Not often you can do something twice, that fast, at my age

Thought some might like to see a conversation between Gordon Smith and myself from Super Topo. Gordon and Tobin Sorenson did a major new route on the North face of the Grand Jorasse back in the mid 70s that a British party just recently claimed a first free ascent of. edit on 3/9 from Gordon Smith, "Guy Roberston and Pete Benson didn't claim the first free ascent of the route Tobin and I did - they did the Desmaison route. They followed our alternate start (which was recognised as an alternate start to the Desmaison route for 30 years because we had intended to and thought we had climbed the Desmaison. It was also, by the by, recognised as 'the Rolling Stone start'). They didn't follow our line to the top, however. Really this is just a consequence of a mixup (mine) from 30 years ago when Tobin and I thought we were doing the Desmaison but in reality were not. Now, however, it would appear that they (and others before/after them) started up Tobin and my route and finished up the Desmaison ... but what the hell - they did good climbing in good (modern) style! Could you make this clear in the thread!" http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web07f/newswire-jorasses-scots-desmaison Gordon and Tobin did it free, almost 35 years ago now, on sight, and a full day faster (2.5) than the more recent Brits (4 days). It is considered one of the ultimate, long, hard, mixed climbs in Chamonix today. A few years later Gordon had stopped high level alpine climbing and now lives in the Philippines. He is also one of the guys who invented hard mixed climbing...along with Jeff Lowe and a host of others. Although Gordon would certainly call modern mixed cheating. Here is the original thread on ST that has real book potential when you realise all involved. This bit is only a tiny part. Jeff Lowe is Jello, DR is Doug Robinson, Jack Roberts and Todd Eastman and many many others we all would recognise if they posted under their own name. If you like old school alpinism this is an incredible thread. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=382806&tn=0 No doubt they don't cost much to produce past the pick. But with my ancestory I'm a bit tight with a penny myself. Besides being a curmudgeon I am also pretty hard sell having btdt with the old ice tools. Never backed off a climb because my tools weren't up to the task. Like many of us on the thread I graduated from curved gear and later Terros. This pair of Simonds are mine and were well used from the '80s to mid '90s, having used everything available but not finding anything drastically better. Remember I would never intentionally hook rock until just recently. Anything that resembled ice was fair game however. Look familiar? I can relate to your distance from ice climbing having sailed a 54' cutter rigged Columbia back to the US from Am Samoa and Hawaii years ago:) You ever make it back to this side of the world, the scotch and ice are on me..seriously. If you compare the Chacal to Nomic...you get a lot less weight both physically and in swing weight. A pick that will easily sink in any kind of ice, can not be easily broken or bent (i've tried @ 200#) and clean even easier than you can possibly imagine. (honest) The pick is fairly high tech for tooth design and it is forged. There is no longer a need to swing, more like a scratch and hook technique is all that is required now. Any one that ever used a Terro would absolutly love these things no matter how ugly you think they are at first impression. (far as I can tell there are few us around to make the comparison) Biggest thing is they are leashless. Sounds really weird but it takes a LOT less strength to climb leashless. Couple of reasons for that. One you work the hands more like rock climbing, you drop your hands to shake a pump. You can wear lighter gloves and still be warmer because the wrist straps don't cut off the circulation in addition of being able to drop your hands and get the blood back in them easier. You end up using natural features more often because you can so easily let go of your tools with either a body "holster" or unbilicals. The antler handles and radical clearence bend allow you to move your hands up and down the shaft to take full advantage of every placement. So you make fewer...and I mean a lot fewer... placements than you would with say a Chacel or a Terro. As a "dager" they are amazingly secure on moderate terrain front pointing. Not having a spike or hammer would seem to be a major disadvantage but actually way less that you would think at first glance. Stick the head in the snow and they make a decent walking stick on steep ground. Teeth on the back top of the pick hook well in that fashion. ( I stupidly ground my off on a couple of sets of picks before finding the technique) The rear end of the pick sticks out just enough to remove many pins if you are careful just not easily place them. Although a hammer is easily enough to add on the Nomic. (working on a terro type axe for mine) But there are similar tools that eliminate all those issues with little loss of the advantages of the more extreme Nomic. I've used both the newest BD carbon Cobra and the Petzel Quark. I remember thinking Twight was being a little "out there" with his tool choice on the Slovak route, a bent shafted Cobra axe and a Carbon fiber BP hammer that he later gave me as a gift. Obviously he wasn't just ahead of the curve. With the tools Mark told me, "open your mind." Took me another 5 years to just begin that journey! When I started climbing again a few years ago two pictures shook me up. "Chris Brazeau soloing Mt. Alberta's signature feature--the 500-meter, fifty-five-degree ice face, shaped like an inverted triangle, that lies below the north-face headwall." Having been there twice, including just days after Tobin's accident, I was spellbound with the thought process behind the tool. The modern tool being used here was way outside my realm of imagination for that route. Even after making the 2nd solo ascent of Edith Cavell after Robbins and the 2nd on Slipstream along with a number of the older "hard" routes in the area. Then these really blew me away. Jon Walsh's photos of Caroline George. Shooting Gallery on Andromedia. A moderate alpine climb with a Nomic...WTF? Then Ueli Steck. I had spent a season with a set or Quarks. Soloed Shooting Gallery in winter with them along with Polar Circus. Nice tool and much more useable than expected. Then I saw a photo some where of Steck on the Difficult Crack. A place I have been that impressed me. Lots of dry tool marks that weren't there in '78. Steck of course had Nomics in hand in that picture. At that point I went looking for a pair on the cheap but still not convinced. Haven't climbed with anything since no matter the terrain. They are so much of an advantage for an old fat guy like me on modern technical terrain that I can easily over look the minor disadvantages. Add to that ice screws, that go in like Friends do in a clean crack, while holding more. Ice climbing is a whole different sport. These from last week. All this is one of the reasons I think it was McInnes and the Terro that has made the biggest influence on ice climbing. I'd really like to hear any other comments on the comparisons of the old tools to the newest out there. Wee Jock aka Gordon Smith: Umbilicals, lad Nothing new to me 'cuz I used them soloing all kinds of stuff after seeing the Burgess twins and Bugs all hooked up for aid in the '70s. Took a bunch of sh#t for it while guiding as the token American with the local Candian hard men but didn't really give a sh#t as I was more concerned with living. Plopped off onto them more than once which obviously saved my life. Falling off first always kept me from looking for "aid" on ice! Remember how we'd run stuff out? I recently sold my old ice rack to a (can you believe it) collector. 8 chouinard tubes, 4 snarks and a wart hog. That is all I ever owned or used...on anything,, and never once placed them all on a lead! Now guys place 15 or 20 screws on one pitch with less effort than we did just making anchors. Foook me running things are DIFFERENT! I used a Zero and a Chacal a lot. Then two Chacals and finally the Barracuda matched to a Chacal. Been told lots of guys went to two Barracuda and a alpine hammer. The adze on a Terro and the Barracuda got me up more than one sun rotten pillar of Canadian ice that wouldn't tale a screw or a pick Back to unbilicals. I learned two seasons ago...if you are going more than a rope length off the deck, both me and my partner will have umbilicals. I had expensive trips wrecked years ago from dropped tools when we used leashes. Leashless is a recipe for disaster without umbilicals. Screw the 'ethical" concerns on that one. I don't want to waste my time and energy messing around trading tools back and forth or the second climbing the rope. BD and Grivel now offer commercial versions that are really slick. They girth hitch on to the harness (yes everyone wears an almost comfortable harness these days) with a swivel and full weight tiny biners to clip on and off the tool. I punt The longer pics help but the combo of bigger clearence (radically bent handles) and longer picks usually make it a non issue now. I know hard to believe... Jello and others will no doubt role their eyes at this one and chuckle but I agree, it is cheating....really fun but still it is cheating....and for this old man, it feels realllyyyy gooooooood The ethics didn't change, for better or worse, climbing did. Terro or Terror? Gordon, I'd like to have an answer for you but fact is I am just not that good at typing Strange looking......yes but hasn't form always eventually followed function in climbing?

sorry dbl post

I think much can be learned from this thread. First and formost just how ephemeral the local ice climbing conditions are. Around here routes can come in, be awesome and be gone the next day. Good example was Dragontail's NE Coulior early in Dec.'08. Two parties climb one line, every one else climbs another to finish, as the original ice line is totally gone. Not the same climb or level of difficulty. Trusting a trip report for current conditions, no matter how recent, isn't the best idea. You never really know till you're there and swinging on the stuff. Take a moment or two a look around and get a feel for things. I have a bad habit of dressing for the conditions I want, not how they actually might be. Easy to spend a miserable day out doing that. Worse yet it leaves you little leeway if something goes wrong. Make sure you don't do the same on route conditions. Easy to say..."can't be that bad, it just got done yesterday" and then be wrong. It was 36F at my house on Tiger mtn when we left for the climb. It was almost 60F by mid morning here day of the accident. Then we have the local rock at the pass. Which I like btw. Jen's comments below that I think was a pretty astute observation. "the metamorphic andesite at Alpental provides very little adhesion for thin ice climbing in comparison to limestone, granite, gneiss, or sandstone. In fact of every type of rock I've climbed, the thin ice at the pass, just doesn't seem to stick to the rock as well as others. (I'd suspect that the ice delaminating caused both tools to blow*) I've seen big sheets delaminate up at the pass." *The cause of the fall at that point was pure speculation before the details were posted. I agree some what, but I think it is more condition, condition, condition. Having spent years climbing in colder environments I think a lot of things get done in WA (in marginal/warm conditions) that wouldn't get done elsewhere. Done it myself the last two years. Pissing about it the entire time because I really do know better. I have also heard of pretty some serious falls that wouldn't be tolerated by a majority of my past partners. Thankfully there haven't been more serious accidents and injuries. But we have had one fatality this year from just that...too warm to be on the ice and a death from ice fall. This bit of ice on PineApple Express was some pretty good climbing...and only a few inches thick. But add a little water under it or sunshine on it and it wouldn't have stayed adhered to the rock. It was in the high 20's and we had snow and clouds all day. Lucky us. I believe for the most part you make your own luck. But living through a 300' fall in the alpine is just dumb luck, no matter how much experience you have. Being able to walk out on a badly broken ankle (having done it myself) is admirable but may have caused even more serious injuries. (it did on mine) Everything is a decision in life. Do the best with what you have and be prepared to live with the aftermath.

Cool packs for sure. I wanted the ballistics nylon of the Ozone for durability while hauling. That is the weight difference over the Cordura of the Valdez which offers a lot more options over the Ozone.

Glad it wasn't worse. Impressed you got yourself out. Hope the healing goes fast! And thanks for sharing your story.

That is some funny sheetz...gonna have to ban you on super topo though

Funny that...long time ago. I could just barely drink legally in WA when it was taken. Wife loves it. Pack is a slightly larger version of the Ozone. Bigger top pocket to fit two, 1L bottles easily and 2" longer in the body to fit my back. This one is about 30/35 liters. Randy lists the Ozone at 2300cu inch.

You ever taken a winger like that and walked, crawled or hobbled away? No, I am not joking. Anyone can fall off....getting out by yourself after something like that is admirable. Few have the stones required to pull it off.

Here is the "money" pic for the fish pack. Although the new CCW pack is great I have asked Randy to do something similar on a new pattern for a couple more packs he is going to make for me. I suspect that pattern "cut" in the fish pack is why the pack rides so well for such a simple design. Basic pear shape with a wrap around bottom panel makes a real differenece in this style pack. I'd sent Doug Robinson an email asking if he had any influence in the GPIW pattern...suspecting he did. Haven't heard back yet.

They should be getting the local "tough guy award", no question and some serious style points for distance on the fall and the retreat

No worries Wolfe, thankfully not my toes that got stepped on. And if even half of what I posted happened, it is truly amazing no one died!

G-spotter you dumb shit. I only write things I know that happen or talk about climbs I've actually done...you on the other hand....like to talk out your ass about things you haven't done or even been on. Stupid, as they are such easy things to catch. But we had that discussion in private already didn't we? Craig (aka AlpineMonkey) first mentioned the fall in this thread. Later that night Craig and I shared a conversation about the route and the fall he whitnessed. http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/868244/TR_Northwest_Face_of_Mount_Sno#Post868244 For my part I intentionally didn't post any more info or speculation here @ CC. I figured if the guys involved wanted to talk about it they would, or mention the other four guys in there, besides Craig, when it happened. Be interesting to hear some 1st hand perspective on the aftermath and how the victims actually did get out and their respective conditions. Sounds like every thing worked out, amazingly. I did post what I "think" happened from what Craig could tell me and having been on at least part of the route and seen much of the terrain where the guy had to have come off. Which had to be somewhere into the mixed section of pitch 2. That would be at least 300' on a 60m and maybe more if he was on a 70m rope judging by where his second was when the leader finally stopped and the Strong/Cauthorn route description. (might well have been a bit less if he was on a 50m rope but imo really hard to fall off the lower snow ramp if they were using a shorter rope) This from supertopo: "Heard this late last night from an eye whitness. Couple of guys start up Pineapple Express yesterday. Rope runs out on the first 150' of Grade 3 ice and 50' of steep snow that is interlaced with decent size fir trees. Leader the yells down for his second to start simul climbing. Second is a good 100' up the first ice pitch when the leader rips both picks out of a M4 mixed pitch just left of this line. At a similar elevation and steepness from what I could see. Leader falls the distance shown here..plus all but 20/30' of the first 60m pitch. He doesn't deck only because his rope hangs up on one of the trees above as all his pro rips. After seeing his leader literally go winging past him the second has to climb up just to get the slack in the rope as he lowers his injured and non mobile leader to the ground. Then he rigs a rappel on their dbl ropes (one which has been nearly cut in half with only threads connecting it) to get off. Well over a 300' screamer by my calculations. Haven't heard of the injury list yet but they refused help from the two parties on the Mtn yesterday with the leader literally crawling out of the basin and down the 1000m Phantom slide. Some lucky dudes there! SSheeeeeeeetttttttttt!" Craig said it happened. Unlike some posers here, I've never doubted anything he has said. My speculation? YMMV. Like I said it is just a guess on my part from having been there and climbed much of the same first two pitches just a few days beforehand.

what is the metric size?

Sheeeet! That had to hurt. Sounds like the guy went well over 300' from the discription. Anyone know who it was and the damages?

Jens and I are a little "old" school Remember climbing is dangerious. This was done by professionals. For your own safety don't attempt this without adult supervision! Our "Walter Bonatti" belay is just a a short choke on a half hitch to keep me from falling down the chimney and only took body weight so no issue on the new rope unless I totally screwed up the belay . Tied off soft iron pin looks cool though, hu? The anchor was actually two opposed bomber stoppers. But not a technique I'd recommend, really just did it for fun and a photo op here @ cc.com. I bought my Friends from Jardin out of the back of his van. That should give you an idea of just how old school we are. Besides that particular # 3 Friend is Jens. He likes living on the edge Mine are are sewn spectra these days. If they fit your feet the Sportiva's are good boots. The Batura is easy to walk in and warm. Great choice for the approach on this one. The Batura climbs well and is decent hanging out when it is cold. They were spectacular while belaying in the chimney, buried past my belly button in cold powder snow and unable to move.

These are the boot style. I looked at them today, Fulton's are cleaner, might as well be new by the look of them. If they had fit I'd have bought them. Bit too small for my size 12s.

Seems so...but more likely just the guys who haven't done it.

I am an old fart for sure, well past the flat bellied stallion stage creeping on into my crouchity godger fifedom. A sexist for sure but a romatic as well. With little patience for something that doesn't work as advertised or intended. So where is this story going you ask? Sit your ass down and give me some of your precious time and you might well learn a thing or two Somewhere back in the mid '70s I bought a Chouinard, soon to be Great Pacific Iron Works and for the youngsters aboard the roots of Black Diamond, a climbing pack or climbing "ruck" as we refered to them then. 1976, with my then almost new Chouinard "Fish" pack on the way to Mt Deborah, Alaska. Anchorage train station I think. Ray Brooks photo This one was called the FISH pack. Not the FISH company you know and love today but a "fish" pack because the then new balistics grade nylon smelled distinctly like a FISH....more like a long dead fish to be exact. Chouinard and the rest of us thought the name fitting I suspect. It was tough. But not perfect. I shortened the lid stap, added a 2 liter top pocket to the lid. You had to put a piece of foam in it to save poking holes in your back...but at least the nylon was untouched by misplaced ice screws and tools. Did I mention it was a TOUGH pack. We figured out long ago that 30% of your body was all you wanted to pack on your back for very far. If you wanted to actually climb with a pack on better cut that down to 15 or better yet 10%. So a long approach was good for 55# if you really had to. Climbing? More like 20# better yet less. You need at least 2 quarts of water in the pack for a long day alpine route. Lid is a handy place for two 1L bottles then and now since hydration blatters never work in the cold anyway. Belay jacket, extra hardware, tat line, gloves, simple, tough, haulable, foam pad for comfort and to sit on during a bivy. And the pig bastard must fit. No turid sausages here. Thsi is a real honest to gawd climbing sack. The ancient FISH pack from Chouinard was able to fill all those rolls for some 20+ years. Dead of course at around 10 years but it kept going and going until I worried about it actaully rotting apart. The FISH pack went everywere with me, a big handful of Canadian North faces, more ice than I can recount, expeditions to Alaska, Nepal, SA, rock climbing, El Cap, ect. Used as luggage, climbing, hauling and storage. Finally got to the point I just couldn't get rid of it for sentimental sake. Of course I tried other packs, dead bird, cilo, wild things, and others I can't remember. But at around 30/35L, and did I mention tough it was hard to replace. Then a buddy mentioned Randy Ratcliff's...wood cut prints. That would be Randy Ratcliff, of Twight fame with climbs like Reality Bath, hard ice, and mixed, ect., ect., ect. Besides climbing really, really hard, Randy carves wood blocks and makes stunning prints in his spare time. He is an artist and a craftsman. That spills over into his other business, Cold Cold World, where he sews climbing packs. Old school craftsmanship, old school more like original Wild Things quality meets the Alpinist, Joe Brown and Karrimore, kind of old school for those closer to my age. http://www.coldcoldworldpacks.com/intro.htm Randy recently took on a project for me and sewed up a custom Ozone with a few minor mods. Production level is stunning. No loose thread, no bs gadgets, shipped on time and nothing extra. It is like finding your life long sweetheart again after a 30 year seperation. I am in love again! For those that don't get "it", no worries. For those of us that actually intend to use this stuff as intended I suspect you can easily see your own needs met here as well. I might surprise myself but if this one lasts even 10 more years of hard climbing on my back I'll be pleased. Cost? $121.00 delivered. Which is a steal! My "Fish" pack was at least $50 back in the '70s. And that was the best money I had ever spent on gear till, now!

Obvious now why I asked for corrections, eh?

Thanks guys! I had asked Wayne if they had a name for their variation. They did, Blue Moon, as in "once in a blue moon", describing the obvious stellar conditions found this year on Snoqualimie. I edited my original post to clarify that for the 1st ascent team. For those interested in such details here is a list I have loosely kept track of. Please correct me if I am in error. Pineapple Express 1st ascent 2/09/05 Cauthorn/Strong 2nd 3/26/07 Marcus/Amos 3rd 4/03/07 Dirty Harry/Rolf 4th 1/25/09 Ade/Marko 5th BM 1st ascent 2/08/09 Wayne/Craig 6th 2/16/09 Dayland/Alpine Dave 7th BM 2/18/09 Jens/Dane For those unaware of such things at ten ascents routes are offically down graded to casual tourist status Better hurry!

Sounds like plantars fasciitis. I am no doctor nor play one on TV. Stop climbing. Do a search on the internet and get a night splint in Vegas. If it is PF a couple days off climbing and a night split will get you back on track quickly ........if you haven't ripped anything. If the splint and advil doesn't give you some relief in a few days go see a doc, GP, Ortho or Podia.

Looks pretty hard lads! Nicely done, again Any more detailed route description you care to offer?

Craig, I agree, the chimney is an all star favorite from any alpine mixed climbing I have done. Truely amazing position. I'd be out again tomorrow but got "busy work" over the weekend. Mid week anyone? Conditions are going to be spectacular on that face for awhile short of a huge chinook up past 10K feet. I'm looking for partners mid week for both NY gully routes and the original line on Pineapple. Kevin? Photos? Any one interested can get the bigger original jpegs by removing the "sized" from the properties and putting that url into google. Have fun!