Dane

Hey Buckeroo...nothing personal. Lot of hyperbole in this thread including some of my own SLW gear in use. Steve House with the packs before starting up the 7,500 foot SW Face of King Peak, 1998. The single rope used is in the yellow pack. 13 hrs on the face and a RT time of 36 hrs. base to base. Photo is Joe Josephson's who was House's partner for the climb. Rope? Skinny Twins will come in at 76g s meter for the pair while a 9.1 will be 53g a meter. Having used both tells me I want a decent single. Nice that it is lighter if you don't need full length rappels. Packs? I'd like to met the guy or gal who can actually climb anything with more than a 30L sac. MEC alpenlite ? I agree, nice climbing pack @ 1.5# total weight and an excellent price with Dyneema ripstop.

This from Steve House on the Patagonia web site. Makalu '09 "The wall was first attempted by two visionary climbers who, almost single-handedly, created the lightweight-expedition style that myself and a handful of others use to climb Himalayan mountains today. In the spring of 1981 Polish purist Voytek Kurtyka and the highly talented Brit Alex MacIntyre climbed to 23,000 feet on the west face. That autumn the duo returned with the preternaturally gifted high-altitude Polish climber Jerzy Kukuchka. On their incredible attempt the trio climbed to 24,200 feet before being turned back after Alex took six hours to lead a single pitch of 120 feet. One of their weight-saving measures was to bring only one climbing harness for the three of them. That harness was used by the leader and the two seconding would climb with in the old-style of having a loop of a cord tied around their waist. I bow at the alter of those hardmen." I understand going light and why. "Have done a couple big climbs alpine style carrying everything up and over that wouldn't have been possible or as fun with older heavier gear. " Fun I understand..."not possible", for the vast majority I might question that when you get to SLW gear. Falling in the alpine? If you aren't looking at the possibilty of a fall...well.....must be a easy route for you. "they had occasional stitching/contruction issues in the past"

Manufacture info isn't what you'll see in the field especially on 1/2 ropes clipped alternatively through different pieces of gear. What I saw was way more than you'd normally expect, each caused minor injuries, that imo, wouldn't have happened on a decent single rope. Don't get me wrong I love my Beal ice line twins or climbing on decent lwt dbls just didn't realise one of the trade offs till this winter. Older 9mm dbls (I still have a couple of decent ones) didn't have that kind of elongation. The 33% elongation numbers are needed with the non dynamic belays of the current generation of ATCs but I don't think it makes us any safer other than on paper. Gene, not that scientific but try top ropeing something with a single, skinny, half rope and see what you think of the stretch.

? with what? Fun mixed... TC seems to be out at the moment, my bet is NEC is in.

Skinny ropes? Saw two falls this winter that ended up being much longer than they should have been because of rope stretch on 7.8 twins and 8.2 dbls. Falls? DBL what you'd get from a decent single 10.5 mm. Boots? Pick any of the fabric stuff. Although the sticky rubber is a big advantage. Fit generally isn't Packs? Even the dyneema reinforced rip stop, rips. Full dyneema is stupid expensive, 3 to 4 times the same pack in any other material including dyneema reinforced ripstop. It isn't the pack body that wears out anyway on even the lwt ballistics cloth packs but over time the shoulder straps. So much sales hype. IMO if you are paying over $250 for a full sized pack it is a rip off. For a pack that is actually useful for climbing more like $150 or less.

We have come so far in the "light is right" scheme over the last 30 years. Much of it is awesome and helpful in the mountains. Some of it I think has gone too far. The good stuff? super light weight stretchy clothing slw ice tools slw light caribiners slw crampons Not so good? skinny, super light weight, super stretchy ropes slw boots that wear out in a season slw light packs that don't last but one climb Unless you are a professional climber who gets new gear after every climb and free boots every year I think it is a bad idea. I love lwt ropes but if they make a fall in the alpine longer maybe they aren't the best idea. Discuss?

I have a pair of BD Sabertooth with bots. $60 plus shipping

Cool! Just checking because as a second tool mated with an alpine axe the Azterex hammer is sweet. But the Viper not so much as a 2nd because it will be a lot heavier than some of the newer lwt alpine axes. (but what isn't) As a matched pair either model is a nice set up. Have fun with what ever you get!

Joe are you buying a pair or just a hammer to mate up with your alpine axe?

Both are good tools. Hard to find a bad tool these days. But they are both technical ice tools. Neither is a tool I'd want to have to self arrest with. Most will want a simple mountaineering axe for that use. The Aztarex is more a surgical scapel in the alpine with limited use for most. The Viper the everyday knife that will work for any job. The Aztarex is very light, uninsulated and easy to plunge. A decent climbing tool on alpine ice not so good on hard water ice or black ice. Not so good on really hard technical ice and not much clearence. The Viper is a do anything tool, insulated handle, good clearence and also plunges well. Viper is good on any kind of ice at any difficulty. A few of my climbing partners like the Viper better than the more expensive Cobra. Viper would be better compared to the Quark than the Azterex or Axtar. Quark is another all around tool that will climb anything, any time. I love Petzel tools. But the Azterex is more akin to the Nomic in that it is a limited use, and a specialised tool. Two of the very best tools if you have the need on terrain they were designed for. Azterex was designed for super light weight, hard technical alpine climbing, leashless. But neither is a tool I'd suggest as your only tool. As a tool you can grow with, the Viper is more useful in a broader range of climbing (like easy or hard local ice cragging) and the obvious choice if you are to have only one set of tools. If you continue to climb you'll have more than one set of tools anyway. Quark, Cobra and Viper are three of a very limited group that you can put in that box of, "If I can only have one set of tools". Volcanos? Get yourself a set of trekking poles and/ or a cheap, longer alpine axe. Trust me, a 50cm technical ice tool (which is what we are discussing here) will SUCK on anything but the the shortest bit of the hardest routes on NW volcanos.

It is fun to see others get involved in this thread. Be great to hear your experience Wayne. Got this comment from Gregg Cronn last night. Those are some of Gregg's pictures earlier in the thread of his and James Blench's ascent of Super Coulior in 1980. For those that don't know Gregg and James. Both were the "token" American's working in Canada back in the late '70s and early '80s guiding and climbing. Gregg and Barry Blanchard did the 3rd ascent of the north face of Alberta in 1983. Barry, " a big deal for me at 24". An early ascent of Polar Circus and later the 2nd winter ascent of the north face Kitchener's GCC with Carlos Buhler. Just four of the many routes in the Rockies for Gregg and then a number of nasty, hard, expeditions to Nepal. James Blench is considered along with Barry Blanchard and Dwayne Congdon one of the few legends in Canadian alpine guiding that is still climbing. Not much James hasn't climbed on ice and hard alpine in the Rockies. Gregg's comments and story: "Someone told me about the thread. Great read. I wanted to add my 2 cents but I am not a member of Cascade Climbers. I gave a nervous chuckle when you mentioned it being one of the most dangerous climbs in the Rockies. I had one of the most hair raising epics of my life on that climb. Here is the story... The summer of 1980 was extremely wet. I wet and cold Spring led to a similar June which led to an extremely wet July. I was working for Yamnuska Mountain School at the time and we had 18 days of rain out of a 21 day trip. Not only did it rain, the high peaks got blasted with snow. It didn't stop snowing and raining until the second week of August. Even then there was no long spell of clear weather that summer. I heard somewhere that St. Helen's blowing its' top contributed to the unusual weather that year. After teaching all summer James Blench and I had some time in early September to do a climb together. The two 'merrycans' working for Yam decided on the Super Coulior of Deltaform. After a four day late August storm, and the summer weather, the mountains were just pasted with ice and snow. That may partially account for the fat appearance of the ice in the photos from 1980. We started up the lower gully at midnight and soloed all the way to the traverse to the upper gully-which we reached in a glorious sun rise. All the mountains were bathed in pink--a blue haired Mary Kay Saleslady's wet dream. The climbing was the best alpine ice I have ever experienced. We both had Axes and north wall tools (Chouinard zero for me) which penetrated solid styrofom ice to the hilt with an easy swing. We swung six wonderful leads of ice climbing up to the head wall which we reached at noon. James belayed me to a stubby Chouinard screw and I launched on to the mixed pitch, excited at the prospect of reaching the sun and tagging the summit after the two short pitches remaining. This was also going to be my first big Rockies test piece and I was psyched to have it nearly in the bag. Twelve hours later I rolled over the ridge cornice, in the dark, so tired, hungry and dehydrated that I was hallucinating wildly and talking to my ice hammer ("please Ms. Mjillnar stay in that ice for me"), completely numb to anything but an overpowering urge to sleep. The fun started when I fell, 70 feet out right at the crux. I don't remember what caused the fall because my mind immediately went blank. Faced with my soon to be demise at the young age of 20, my brain core decided it was best if my conscious part of my being wasn't witness to what was going to happen when I splatted like an overfilled waterballon on the 60 degree ice below the overhanging crux. Poor James had to watch, like a catcher following a foul ball heading to the stands behind him, as I ripped all the protection and sailed over and behind the belay. I came back to life at the end of 140 feet of rope without a scratch on me and all my ripped protection tingling together in front of me. Dwayne Congdon's borrowed friend, lovingly placed in a bomber crack below the crux, is bent and the cams on one side destroyed.. God truly does love the foolhardy. You build up quite a lot of speed when you travel through the air for 100 plus feet and my brand new Edelrid showes it. The kern sports a 15 foot long melted metal on plastic burn that Jame's dynamic body belay allowed to run through the screw carabiner as I slowed down. Having checked out for the air show I am in surprisingly good spirits. I have lost my glasses in the fall, so I can now add 20/200 vision to my issues but I am confident that we can still get up the thing. James, however, is totally freaked. He wants to start rapping the route. I convince him to give it, the pitch that I just logged some considerable air time off of and for some reason beyond both of our capacities to understand at the time survived, a shot. Now James is a fantastic climber, one of the best I have ever seen move in the mountains, but after fifty feet he wants no part of the iced up, down sloping, hard to protect Rockies shit show that awaits him over the next 30 feet of overhanging hell. He lowers off. Now what? Not aware of Carlos's easier variant (the willy bastard took one look at the crux on a cold Feb. morning and immediately headed left), climbed during his winter ascent a few years ago, I am pissed and want off the climb so I set off up pitch again with Jame's top rope speeding my climb to the crux. It took me nearly three hours to climb the crux. It was iced up and hard to protect and, not surprisingly, I didn't want to fall. When I get to the belay, 15 feet below the ridge, I place 7 pieces of protection to build a decent belay. Dwayne's friend gets pounded into a crack like a cheap french pin. Jame's climbs carefully and slowly up, not liking the the sound of my "don't fall" and lets me lead over the cornice when he reaches me. I hacked away for an hour before I could flop my sorry ass over the other side at midnight. The next morning we start down quickly and slurp water at some drips and head down into the valley on the south of Deltaform, easily reached in a fewhours. It takes us all day to walk the 12 miles to the road. My calf's are two balls of cramps from standing on my front points so I have to comically walk backwards up any up hills. When we reach the highway, James stands in the middle of the road with his bandanna flying in an outstretched arm and forces the first car by to stop. I didn't wrap my hands around a rope for nine months. I think it is now called Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Shows you how bad it gets when it is going so well. If the crux on Deltaform is 5.9 then the crux on Grand Central Coulior is 5.6. Easily the most terrifying piece of ground I ever had to climb in the Rockies!!! Cheers, Gregg" These I stole from Gregg's face book account. Nice, small "snap shot", and a tiny bit of Gregg's Rockies climbing resume. Barry Blanchard following through the yellow band on Alberta Gregg in the crux corner of GCC on the 2nd winter ascent. Carlos Buhler high in the upper gully on the 2nd winter ascent of Kitchener's GCC.

this from some friends over the weekend. "attempt ice runnels, to get to second coulior, make it up 60 meters... without ice...just sugar snow and rock, very hard to protect, run out of time." Someone needs to get into the NE coulior...I suspect both lines through the headwall might well be IN.

Ya, obviously. As good as the crew at NAG was at solving problems and doing the right thing, getting anything done now as far as warrenty issues go isn't so easy. Nice that OP stepped up, which was my point.

Pretty cool that OP stepped up to do the right thing. Bet you'd be hard pressed to get Grivel to answer in person these days

More here: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/878970/Stuart_Lake_Road_Update#Post878970 Suspect you'll be hard pressed to find any ice on TC but let us know what you find with a TR and pics please

Just a thought on journals. I have been going back through mine for various reasons, often just to match the entries to old photos I have of the climbs. What I find, years later, is there is never enough details in the journel. Some of my better climbs have little written about them in the journel besides, mtn, elevation, partner and may be, if I am lucky some time frames. Three or four lines at best. Some of the things that seemed trivial at the time, like the gear and clothing used, conditions, or how I faired on the climb personally aren't there. I have half a dozen climbs I need to write up from this winter and have yet to do it. But when I do I'll add all the little details this time around as trival as they seem at the moment. Best bet to document your own climbs is take lots of photos and write down the details. Better yet do both and write a short story of the adventure as well. That might make a great TR here as well if you are willing to share. Not what I was thinking when I first posted but something like this. http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/875785/TR_Mt_Deltaform_N_E_Face_Lowe_#Post875785 You'd be amazed at what you discover years later rereading your old writings.

Here is a much better history of Friends than I could ever offer. Also some good info on the nut page for the Forrest gear. Fun read. http://www.needlesports.com/nutsmuseum/camsstory.htm "Ray Jardine took out a patent on the 4th June 1977 and distributed the Friends in the United States for a short period under the style of the firm, Jardine Enterprises. The first units marketed were the sizes of 1, 2 and 3 inches at the price of $17,80 each. Built of aerospace aluminium alloy and of unrivalled strength, they would allow (while respecting certain conditions) to secure the tricky, flared cracks. The two circlips of the original samples were quickly replaced by two bonded jam nuts."

Back in the day we called that a journal. If you just want to brag on all the climbs you have done..that is easy..just post a TR and it'll be around forever. Kinda like a journal with pictures and then everyone can add their own comments to your adventure as well.

The Friends Jardine and his buddy first sold out of the back of his van didn't have a pat stamp on them, they did have the thin, big nut ( or the earlier circle clip), flat bottom of the cam and no lightening holes...only sizes were #1, #2, #3. As Bill pointed out to me the .5 size Friends came much later and have a titanium stem.

Earliest commercially available Friends did not have a pre-sewn sling and came in 1/2/3 although 4s came quickly after the first release. They did had a machine nut on the end of the axles. It is a thinner nut than the next gen. which is a smaller, thicker nut and has the "made in England" and Pat stamp and # as well. Earlier cams have straight bottoms and no lightening holes in the #1 and #2. (my original ones from Jardin in Yosemite where not drilled 1/2/3) The early stamp is WILD COUNTRTY in two lines covering the full width of the stem very close to the axels, the "FRIEND" stamp is small and about 1/3 the width of the stem. And a very simple and very small "made in England" is on the reverse side of the stem. The # about 1/2 the width of the stem. So early gen is a big thin nut, two line WILD COUNTRY. The second gen is a smaller thicker nut and one line WILD COUNTRY. Next gen came with the hex head nut.

Don't beat yourself up. You are doing the stand up thing now. It is obvious to me that the "right" thing needed some definition. Booty or thief? No one was 100% right/wrong in this one. Good lesson (and a good public discussion imo) for everyone and hopefully an even better lesson for both climbers, leaver and taker. Good on ya, Micah for standing up in public.

we wondered who took that 300' off Pineapple in th middle of the street, windows down and keys in the ignition....

Until Kevino posted the link I guess I didn't realise just how common it was to have draws ripped off projects. Bad Karma. But I also wonder just how many people look at it as stealing? You leave your gear on the rock and for most I suspect it is fair game, booty. If you are not projecting stuff yourself and understand the need for fixed gear it is even easier to label it booty. Leave gear on a 5.7 and you know the result. I don't see any different result if you leave gear on a 5.11 or a 5.13 for that matter, if the gear is easy to get to. On a serious note and as a matter of record I want everyone to know the rope I left on Asguard this winter is a project rope and not booty. If you beat me to it I would expect it to be returned.

Just another "fossilized turd" with no dog in the fight but I do have an observation. Aborigine isn't that hard by even '80s standards at 5.11. Draws left there over night were up for grabs as booty by any standard. No disrespect intended ot either the botty hauler or Mr. Johnson. But we are talking 5 or 6 slings and the accompaning biners. (if they were mine I'd actually know the number missing) At least two of them were "sponsored draws". In the grand scheme of things not that much money even for a "non-working" climber. For someone that is at least particially sponsored and willing to freeely replace old gear on the wall not much of a ding in the pocket book. Our shit being ripped from the base of a climb or out of a car is one thing, leaving your gear hanging on MODERATE climbs by sport standards is another. Just an FYI but if I had seen a half dozen draws hanging on a moderate 5.11, mid week, I might have taken the time myself to hang my way up the thing just for the fun and the free booty. But I don't score booty these days. Bad Karma, IMO. I've had enough stuff ripped off over the years. Found a bunch as well. With the ability to communicate via the Internet these days everyone seems to think what they "leave" should be returned. I've picked up 3 sets of leashless tools this winter at rap stations. Gave them back when I could. But if someone started bitching about "loosing" them and DEMANDED them back I'd sooner give them away to a good home. You'd have to be kinda a dumb ass to leave them there in the first place. My guess is the poor bastard that did score your gear had no clue why you left it but I bet he didn't think it intentional. Bitching about it here might seem like an educational opportunity for some. The real lesson for me anyway is, don't be leaving your shit on "easy" climbs. Some climbers (looks like 50% from this thread) seem to think anything not locked up, nailed down and with a Rottweiler guarding it as free for the taking.

From a buddy of mine this morning. Gotta wonder just how true it is? "I was checking cruise lines because I heard the rates are very cheap right now. I found a Somali cruise package that departs from Sawakin (in the Sudan ) and docks at Bagamoya (in Tanzania ). The cost is a bit high @ 800 per person double occupancy but I didn't find that offensive. What I found encouraging and enlightened is that the cruise is encouraging people to bring their 'High powered weapons' along on the cruise. If you don't have weapons you can rent them right there on the boat. They claim to have a master blacksmith on board and will have reloading parties every afternoon. The cruise lasts from 4-8 days and nights and costs a maximum of $3200 per person double occupancy (4 days). All the boat does is sail up and down the coast of Somalia waiting to get hijacked by pirates. Here are some of the costs and claims associated with the package. $800.00 US/per day double occupancy (4 day max billing) M-16 full auto rental $ 25.00/day ammo at 100 rounds of 5.56 armor piercing ammo at 15.95 Ak-47 riffle @ No charge. ammo at 100 rounds of 7.62 Com block ball ammo at 14.95 Barrett M-107 .50 Cal sniper riffle rental 55.00/day ammo at 25 rounds 50 Cal armor piercing at 9.95 Crew members can double as spotters for 30.00 per hour ( spotting scope included). Jesus Christ---- they even offer RPG's at 75 bucks and 200 dollars for 3 standard loads "Everyone gets use of free complimentary night vision equipment and coffee and snacks on the top deck from 7pm-6am." Meals are not included but seem reasonable. Most cruises offer a mini-bar... these gung ho entrepreneurs offer......... get this..... "MOUNTED MINIGUN AVAILABLE @ 450.00 per 30 seconds of sustained fire" They advertise group rates and corporate discounts...... and even claim "FUN FOR THE WHOLE FAMILY" They even offer a partial money back if not satisfied....here's some text from the ad. "We guarantee that you will experience at least two hijacking attempts by pirates or we will refund half your money back including gun rental charges and any unused ammo ( mini gun charges not included).. How can we guarantee you will experience a hijacking? We operate at 5 knots within 12 miles of the coast of Somalia . If an attempted Hijacking does not occur we will turn the boat around and cruise by at 4 knots. We will repeat this for up to 8 days making three passes a day along the entire length of Somalia . At night the boat is fully lit and bottle rockets are shot off at intervals and loud disco music beamed shore side to attract attention. Cabin space is limited so respond quickly. Reserve your package before Feb 29 and get 100 rounds of free tracer ammo in the caliber of your choice." As if all that isn't enough to whet your appetite, there were a few testimonials "I got three confirmed kills on my last trip. I'LL never hunt big game in Africa again!"---- Lars , Hamburg Germany "Six attacks in 4 days was more than I expected. I bagged three pirates and my 12yr old son sank two rowboats with the minigun. PIRATES 0 -PASSENGERS-32! Well worth the trip. Just make sure your spotter speaks English" Ned, Salt Lake city , Utah USA "I haven't had this much fun since flying choppers in NAM . Don't worry about getting shot by pirates as they never even got close to the ship with those weapons they use and their shitty aim--reminds me of a drunken 'juicer' door gunner we picked up from the motor pool back in Nam" --"chopper' Dan ----Toledo USA."