Dane

Forgot as OMR didn't ask the 2nd question. Great plan for getting up Rainier...it is just that the weather and conditions are really bad right now. That will of course change. I've had another inch of rain at my place just in the last 24hrs. No plan or anyone's skills is going to make that OK for the moment Time will, obviously.

TMO I had figured on doing the same thing this year after originally not getting a timely response from my email request. (although most everyone else had and now I have as well with a 2 day turn around) Made me wonder what the situation was for the two soloists involved in the avalanche last week. As one for sure did not have a solo permit but by his father's account. "had climbed Rainier many times by all different routes". Although I try not to climb in obviously terrible snow conditions...that sounds way too close to home for me. How about you? I have asked if the soloist skier had a solo permit and will know at some point. The Chief Ranger on Rainier and all the Climbing Ranger staff wants to better the communication and better incorporate our needs as climbers into their system. I think this is a unique opportunity to make some signifigant changes for the better on access to the mountain.

Yes...I agree. And the difference in how the fuel pressure changes in the cans is going to be dramatic. You also would be better served by using the same size cans which you can with all these stoves. Easy to see the obvious winner. Add cold weather to the mix and it is even more dramatic. Always good to have data points though, good work Mike

Duplicate post but I wanted to make sure everyone saw it. If you have or want to solo on Rainier this thread might be important to you. http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/963400#Post963400

Worth noting that literally the first sunrise after and actual sun to hit on the Ingraham Direct after the last storm cycle caused the most recent slide on Saturday. Natural release from the sun or human triggered in conjunction with the sun? Doesn't matter. Easy to recognise the sun hitting a loaded slope would have a huge effect on stability. Take a look at the video the skier took. Dark at Ingraham flats when he first starts filming and an incredible sunrise. 15 minutes later it is full light. Slide started 1500' feet above them....just as the sun hit the slope above and the maority of the victims were still in twilight. Pretty common occurance in the mtns on loaded slopes @ that angle and that exposure.

Not terribly uncommon for a group not to rope up on some climbs, NPS no longer considers that "soloing".

Sorry I can't edit it. My mistake. I'll up date the numbers as I check back. 6/25 7am Have you solo'ed Rainier 28 Have you solo'ed with a solo permit 14 Have you solo'ed without a permit 18 Do you avoid NPS staff 23 Have you applied for a solo permit 15 Have you been denied a permit 0 Ideally this poll could lead to some big changes in the solo permit sysytem @ Rainier so I hope those that ever want to solo or have already, will take the time to join the conversation.

Rick, OK...people should know better by now...but long answer Gear does not make you safe. What is between your ears is what makes and keeps you safe. And that is coming from a confirmed gear whore. The gear only helps you survive your bad judgement or acts of an unkind God. My response was more concerned with the currrent conditions. It has been snowing up high here for 3 plus weeks now. Way out of the norm. I started posting that info a couple of weeks ago and was preaching caution because with the holiday weekend coming up everyone, including myself, is chomping at the bit to get back in the mountains. The slide on Rainier was a classic example of what WILL happen. It was lucky more weren't killed Saturday morning. So the thing on Rainier is this....serac avalanches aren't so easily predicted. When they fall a tranciever might be helpful but probes generally are not. Debris is too hard to probe through. Living or dying in a serac collapse is luck. I try not to spend much time under them. Soft snow avalanches, human or naturally triggered, like last weekend can so easily be avoided. You just don't climb in these conditions. It is no secret and easily predicted. The conditions we have now are rare and obviously deadly on Rainier for the moment. The conditions will change. As soon as they do, I'll summit. Until then you couldn't get me out of the parking lot. To answer Rob...Rainier in June isn't winter skiing. If you think the June conditions on Rainier right now require a beacon and probe you shouldn't be climbing IMO. Everyone is welcome to an opinion of course. Look around and you'll see some of the locals here making fun of what we should or should not be climbing right now in the PNW. Some of the same guys who disageed with the snow condition predictions I was making two weeks ago. Fun sport until someone looses an eye right?...as long as it is not your eye. FWIW the first 25 or so times I climbed Rainier all of them were planned from 300 miles away (C'dA actually) and booked months ahead of time. I did indeed summit in some bad weather on those trips and later ones. And I have been turned around on Rainier a few times as well. Two reasons for the failures. Too warm and/or too much snow up high. And all but one were trips with folks coming long distance wanting to climb Rainier as their primary goal of the trip. So we tried anyway. Missed this as well first time around. It may be hard to believe but my "go/no guage" is the same no matter my travel time or distance. And I have traveled a lot to alpine climb over the years. If anything I am way more conservative the farther I get away from home in the short term simply because I don't know the current local conditions, snow pack or weather first hand. And no matter what range I am climbing in they can and do change generally every season. Rainier in June of 2010 is a great example. Hard for even the knowledgable locals to believe it is this bad.

The Park service is looking for more data on soloing climbing in the Park, specifically summit attempts on Rainier. If you have any interest in soloing Rainier or have soloed Rainier in the past please fill out the poll. We as climbers have a rare opportunity here to help make a signifigant change on how the Park manages climbers. Please feel free to add your comments as well. I suspect that many of the ski ascents are done unroped. If you have not roped up on a ski ascent or any ascent for that matter of Rainier please check the "I have soloed Rainier", and the "I soloed without a permit" box. You can check as many boxes as apply to you.

If you have any thought that a becon and probes will be needed on Rainier because of the conditions you should not be on Rainier in those conditions this time of year.

Just curious as to why you want them. Are you planning on doing Liberty in bad weather where you need them or just curious as an intellectual exercise?

You might want to rethink that list: http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/05/why-weight-of-your-footwear-is.html

Nice! Thanks for posting the link. Those guys have been killing me with the lack of communication Their original plan was a new route on Foraker, the west butt+ski trip and finally a simu solo of the Cassin. Same pair did TWO one day ascents via different routes of the north butt on Hunter, both to the summit, so they should have some fun stories to tell when they get back. Congrads on a great trip!

Thanks for the comments and for posting your own experiences. I hope the conversation does not end here. I sent a snail mail solo request on Monday 6/7 (from Issaquah to Ashford) and recieved a email appoval today 6/9 from Shefan. Hard to be any more prompt than that. Although my earlier emails were not answered in the same manner or by Stefan himself, as would have been typical, and certainly unusual from other's experiences posted here. I have no doubt Stefan Lofgren and Chuck Young care about the Park, climbers and how both are managed. I have a phone appointment with the Chief Ranger on Mtn Rainer Chuck Young, set for 10AM tomorrow. I'll relay what I find out from that conversation. If anyone has any concerns or questions you'd like me to mention please post them here or send me a PM. I'd obviously like to see some flexibility from the NPS on climber related issues and am hopeful that will happen by the tone of our first email exchange: Chuck Young, CR RNP sez: "You are correct in your observations that there have been some significant changes in the park's climbing program.. I would like to be able to discuss why they have come about and what your ideas are for improving the program."

Speak up, I can't hear you.

Hi Lowell, Great history there, thank you for posting. I know there is a early film of climbing Ptarmigan Ridge on Rainier but I have not seen it. I looked but did not see it, Do you know if the library have a copy? The Filson Store was selling copies for a while a year or two ago. I should have bought one then.

About time dude!! That is great news! When and where?

That would be a good solo on the Polish even though it is thicker now than it was in April. Remember this picture Brian? Even the sunny days can be a little messy on Colfax :0 Go get some!

Big difference imo between how Mike G. handled climbers and how the NPS handled climbing on the mtn and how it is being done now. Mike G's mantra from what I saw was "how can we help you have a better and safer climb" and bent over backwards personally to make it happen. Now with Mike G. no longer in that position...not so much imo. And why the concerns are now in a public forum. I just got off the phone to the Ranger Station in Talkeetna and baring the 60 day advance notice it is easier and faster to get a solo permit for Denali than it is on Rainier currently. Why am I not suprised. I have little doubt you are correct it that assumption. Two things about it bother me. Why is the NPS discouraging anyone from using the Park? And anyone actually qualified (not capable mind you, as almost anyone in resonable health is) to solo Rainier doesn't consider it much of a challenge or risk by the easiest routes.

I can only give you my experience as an example. In the past I have had solo permits on Rainier every year for years and no hassle just send in the paper work. Generally bug them a time or two after 30 days and you get a letter or now an email with the OK. Then last year, same gig and I get a phone call, application "not good enough". So I do a little written tap dance as requested. That interaction sticks in my crawl as most of the written tap dance wasn't anything anyone would ever do soloing on a glaciated mtn. Your survive soloing any terrain by being smart not by the gear you carry. Looked good on paper but TOTAL bs. Things were obviously going backward at RMP not forward imo. The reputation in my mind of the climbing rangers went from squared away climbers I need to talk to before every trip, to complete wantabe nerds I'll avoid at any cost in just two phone conversations. The climber that died in the most recent avalanche by his father's accounts "had climbed Rainier numerious times, by many routes". I have to wonder why he didn't have a current permit. How about the skier who was soloing and also trapped in the avi? But I know why I would not have one. I was certainly out of patience this year when my emails weren't returned. And I am not the only one unhappy with the situation and lack of communication from the little research I have done. I did finally get an email from the NPS giving me the details and a link on how to apply again for a solo permit. Which I did again last week. Same info again they have gotten for the last 10 years. Which has to be the worst system in the universe for returning solo requests! But I'll freely admit I would have gone on the mtn already this year without a permit if the weather and conditions had been better. And frankly it pisses me off to be put in that position by a park service employee. I don't think the solo permit program is being used to steer climbers to the guide programs working the mountain. But I do think the solo permit program is being used an an inept way to lower the percieved agency risk by those in charge at the NPS on Rainier. You want to lower the risks to the public on Rainier? You add qualified climbing rangers, you don't axe the staff of extremely qualified seasonal climbing rangers. You have a public place to get info out from all sources like a Blog. You don't stop using a blog that was the best source of Rainier climbing info. The only way the system will be changed is if we as climbers make it an issue and make them change it. AINT THEIR MTN, it is ours. And it is time to remind them of that fact.

A lot of lucky climbers this day.

I missed this first time around on Max's previous post, thought it very well done, so thought I'd post the link and content again. http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/06/08/1217630/camp-muir-climbers-were-warned.html Camp Muir climbers were warned AVALANCHE AT RAINIER: Weather delays search for missing Olympia man JASON THOMPSON/Contributing photographer This is the avalanche slide path on a portion of the Ingraham Glacier called Ingraham Direct where 11 climbers were caught. One is presumed dead. On the left is Gibraltar Rock and on the right is Disappointment Cleaver. By Craig Hill, staff writer Published: 06/08/10 6:42 am | Updated: 06/08/10 6:43 am Comments (0) Recommend (0)At least nine of the climbers caught in Saturday's avalanche on Mount Rainier were warned conditions were unsafe before they departed, a national park spokesman and multiple sources told The News Tribune on Monday. Just hours after the warning, 11 climbers were caught in an avalanche on the Ingraham Glacier. One, identified as 27-year-old Mark Wedeven of Olympia, is presumed to be the 96th known mountaineering death in Rainier history, park spokesman Kevin Bacher said. Avalanche conditions remained high Monday and prevented rangers from searching for Wedeven, Bacher said. It is unclear when conditions will permit the search to continue. The Northwest Weather and Avalanche Center released a statement warning of “significant unstable snow accumulations” on Rainier and much of the Olympics and Cascade ranges. Climbing ranger Tom Payne was stationed at Camp Muir on Friday night and Saturday morning and notified all of the parties camped there that the avalanche danger on the upper mountain was extreme, Bacher said. “Most of the parties decided not to climb,” Bacher said. The three- and six-person parties who were caught in the avalanche were among those warned by Payne, Bacher said. The other two climbers did not register for their climbs, so it is unclear whether they received the warning or checked avalanche conditions, Bacher said. Wedeven reportedly started climbing from Paradise late Friday night or early Saturday and did not stop at Camp Muir. Park officials identified him based on descriptions from other climbers and a missing person report filed by his family. International Mountain Guides and Rainier Mountaineering Inc. decided Friday night that they would not attempt the 14,411-foot summit on Saturday and relayed the news to their clients. Instead, both groups left Camp Muir later than usual and climbed to Ingraham Flats to show the clients the upper mountain. The RMI group reached the flats first, and guides were showing clients how to do a pit test to check for avalanche danger when the wall of snow began its deadly descent. “The guides turned and told the clients to run,” said Paul Maier of RMI. Because of their position below where the avalanche stopped, the RMI guides needed just 10 minutes to get in position to help rescue climbers. IMG guides weren’t far behind. While climbers not buried by the avalanche were the first to start digging, RMI guides Tyler Jones, Adam and Caroline George, Mark Falender and Thomas Greene helped dig out three climbers. Many of the climbers weren’t wearing avalanche transceivers, so guides had to probe the snow and pull on ropes to find them. None of the climbers was buried deeper than about 1 foot, but two were blue by the time they were rescued, Maier said. Wedeven was traveling alone, so he was not roped up and perhaps not using an avalanche transceiver. Wedeven’s parents, David and Carol, told KIRO-TV that their son had climbed Mount Rainier numerous times. “He said to me, ‘Mom, if I die on a mountain, don’t worry about it,’ and I’m sure it was instant and it was over,” Carol Wedeven said to the news station. All of the buried climbers were pulled to safety within 10 minutes, about the time IMG guides Eric Remza, Josh Smith, Mike Haft and Austin Shannon arrived and started tending those who were hurt. “They were lucky because they were in the right place at the right time to help,” Maier said of the guides who helped in the rescue. The current high avalanche danger is not unusual in June when winter and summer conditions mix, said Paul Baugher, co-director of International Mountain Guides and director of the Northwest Avalanche Institute. Most of the avalanche danger comes early in the season, and so far this season more of IMG’s climbing parties have turned around than have reached the summit, he said. The nice weather Saturday morning might have given climbers a false sense of security, he said. “You go up a little bit to take a look and it’s so nice that you get lured into going a little bit farther,” Baugher said. “People get away with a lot of bad decisions.” With nasty weather battering Rainier for the past three weeks (at one point last week three hours of 100 mph winds ruined several tents at Ingraham Flats), climbers and guides alike were itching for a nice day that would allow them to summit. “I give a lot of credit to the guides to be able to resist the temptation (to climb on Saturday),” Baugher said. “It’s always OK to turn around.” Wedeven is presumed to be the first mountaineering death on Rainier since 2005, when a Jefferson County firefighter fell down Gibraltar Chute. From 1998 to 2005, park records show there was 0.18 fatalities per 1,000 climbers. With the risk of avalanche still high, Baugher says climbers must be diligent about checking conditions before they climb. “Watch the avalanche reports,” Bacher said, “and take them extremely seriously.” Craig Hill: 253-597-8497 craig.hill@thenewstribune.com   Staff writer Joyce Chen contributed to this report. The other soloist in the group, is a skier. His video is here: http://www.king5.com/news/local/Avalanche-Survivor-Shares-Home-Video-of-Aftermath-95750639.html Mark Wedeven, 27, of Olympia had by his Father's account, "climbed Rainier numerious times, by all different routes." Mark had also climbed Olympus by biking from Olympia to the mtn, climbing it and biking home. He was a climber by any definition. Our best to his family and friends.

Good info, thanks. Teton's climbing ranger's conditons blog. http://www.tetonclimbing.blogspot.com/ http://www.tetonclimbingroutes.blogspot.com/ with a 6/03 update on conditons. And the Tetons registration program: "ll overnight stays in the park require a backcountry use permit. Obtain a backcountry permit at the Jenny Lake Ranger Station, Moose Visitor Center or the Colter Bay Visitor Center. The Jenny Lake Ranger Station is the clearinghouse for all backcountry permits when climbing is on the agenda and for all camping in Garnet Canyon. Climbers are not required to register for climbs in Grand Teton National Park; however, climbers are encouraged to leave itinerary details with friends and family. Currently, climbing permits are not required and there is no fee for climbing in the park. If you do not have a person with whom to leave details of your trip with and would like to participate in the Voluntary Registration System, you may do so in person at the Jenny Lake Ranger Station (JLRS). Climbers who decide to register with the park must check in upon return from their trip by stopping by the Jenny Lake Ranger Station in person or dropping off their registration form in the drop box at the JLRS." If Parks Canada and the entire Mt Blanc Massif which covers parts of three countries (who both have more climbers and much more serious weather and routes) can do it you have to wonder why the NPS on Rainier continues to drop the ball.

Agreed. One of the reasons I'd bet the latest avi victim didn't have a solo permit and with no permit you can not register to climb solo. Nice how that works out. As an example I have had a solo permit for YEARS on Rainier. I generally get one late winter or early spring every year. Last two years it has become a silly exercise in "cover your ass" for those involved. And frankly I have less and less patience for it and them dragging their public paid feet simply so I can have access to a freaking National PARK.

Have you ever been helped on a Rainier climb by this blog? http://mountrainierclimbing.blogspot.com/ It was started by an entire crew of folks just wanting to offer help and saftey tips to Rainier climbers. I found it a great resource over the last few years until just recently when the NPS stopped using the blog for climbing specific info. It would be nice if all the Rainier guide services and their guides and the NPS climbing rangers would offer their input on a daily basis as well. more here: http://mountrainiercontribute.blogspot.com/2006/11/behind-scenes.html If you find it worth while email the current climbing program manager and rescue coordinator for Mount Rainier National Park and ask that he and his staff continue and update the original blog. His email is: Stefan_Lofgren@nps.gov If you have had a difficult time getting a solo request processed in a timely manner or climbing questions in general answered or wonder why there are fewer climbing rangers on staff and on the mountain at any given time ask the same email address. If you have concerns on how the park is being taken care of or any climbing concerns you can also reach the Park Superintendant here: Mount Rainier National Park ATTN: Superintendent's Office 55210 238th Ave. E. Ashford, WA 98304 or via phone at: 360-569-2211, ext. 2301 or here via email: http://www.nps.gov/mora/contacts.htm