Dane

Ah, the Rockies 1973 -40C in the shade, after being in the sun all day. I wasn't totally sure we wouldn't die just walking back down. Seems dramatic now in the telling but a real possibility then if you did something wrong and ended up spending the night out without kit. Head lamps? No battery would last more than a few minutes back then in the cold. At -40C? It was just seconds. Obvious wool hat, wool shirt, wool T neck, wool union suit, wool knickers, knicker sox, Trappeur single boots, Carmen Super gaiter (also wool and nylon), Dachstein mitts and a down vest. Wool, the first soft shell! Salewas tubes, Charlet wires, Chouinard 55cm Piolet, alpine hammer, and rigid crampons. Whillians harness and a frozen 150' Eldrid rope. WI3 seemed enough challenge. Things changed quickly in the next couple of years for all of us as the gear got better and better. And WI3 still seems a good challenge. Another shot from '75. My buddy Ray Brooks on Cascade as well. The obvious Chouinard influence on a Yank. Piolet, 'pons and alpine hammer. More Chouinard with the original Jensen pack and the Foam back cagoule. The then, high speed Joe Brown helmet, French wool knickers and Galiber Hivernal dbl boots. Check out the umbilical on Ray's alpine hammer.

I'll take #3 Caritool and all the dog bones with the Mammut shock..pm sent.

They are my heros I had to be reminded this morning. John was 61 when he and Jesse did Slipstream. http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=876333 These guys still....

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/carlos-buhler.html

Ninja Ice? Or any similar knit glove available at your local mini mart? Sticky rubber palms and short cuffs. Ropes run poorly on the rubber imo. I've used them, too sticky for me and I generally climb were it is colder than they are comfortable in. But for the price if you can get over the down sides, decent glove. Sure is sticky on the tools. Every one should try them. Perfect glove if you do a lot of short sport stuff close to the road and you can place a screw quickly with the sticky palms. Sport dry tooling climbing bolts? Awesome choice. I like Mike's B/E better. But the B/E is still not warm enough for me generally. May be on those sunny one stick days when you wonder wtf will be falling off on you MH Torsion is warmer and will last a LOT longer in my experience. I have a pair that has 60+ full pitches of ice and rapping on them and look like new. Never thought they would last that long. Great deal at $30 and good deal at $50 full retail imo. Still when it is cold none of them will do for me and I bump up to the MH Hydra...which is $100 retail and generally can be had for $80 on sale.

Couple of quick points. RE: Drus' comments on guides being involved? The Alpine clubs build a majority of the huts I think..but could easily be wrong...just going from old and not very precise memory. Anyone have something more to add on that idea? Professional guides are generally well represented in the Alpine club memberships. And they should be as both are good stewards of the environment but with differing agendas at times. As an example...as a guide I want huts...as a private climber I don't want huts or commercial guided parties in the huts. John's comments on Stuart? Most everyone would love a good trail or reflectors when you are wandering around in the dark or in a nasty storm. Would a set of reflectors lower the experince walking in and out of mtneer creek in August in day light? Don't know...may be, may be not. Since I am likely to go in and out in the dark...sure I'd like 'um. But right answer? Is there one? Good/better trails are a awesome idea as are bridges were needed. Easy decent routes via chained raps? Have you walked down Asgard with a foot of snow over the scree in the dark? I'm all for a fixed rap route to avoid that again. If you limit visitation, you limit the number of folks that need to be educated. Limit the numbers of people and you limit the over use. Not that I'd want to do that but I think our society has to take on the responsibilty. I don't think anyone here argues that point (that something needs to be done to lower our impact)....but how should we impliment controls and what controls are required to do so?

All plans vitually put into effect by the Alpine Guides Associations of every country mentioned. All with long ties and traditions founded by the mtn guides in France, Swizerland and Italy before WWI to develope tourism and put bread on their tables in a environment it was tough to do so by farming. Nepal is an other good example of human impact on the environment and what people are willing to do when they are hungry. We have many more options available than just repeating what the alpine countries of Europe have done. I have long thought the Canadian Park Service was a good example. But they too are being stressed by the economical and ecological concerns of wanting to bring more people into the wilderness. There is one reason there are huts at Muir...and it isn't the park service or to save lives. I am not saying huts are a bad thing just to realise what they bring to the party besides the comforts of bed and breakfast.

Agreed Daniel. Even though both would be immediate results. But you have to recognise the impact a hut makes on an area as well. Hut at Colchuck? Would mean certain year around use at Colchuck far out pacing what is done there today. Do you really think a couple of chained rap lines off Dragontail would be far behind? (I might be the first in line with a drill) Good discussion. And I agree on the waste issues a hut would solve...IF you can manage the extra use/waste it will generate.

What was required for humans to use and live off the land is no longer required today. We have the physical ability to treat our environment differently. It takes very little effort to recognise true wilderness, even if the mine tailings, old logging roads and physical debris litters the landscape today of most every "wilderness" in CONUS. The concept of development comes from a couple of sources....those in a hurry to use the resource now and those with physical and time limitations that slow their use of the same resources. Same results long term...the "wilderness" resource is not easily renewable once signifigantly changed and over populated.

Again I think the point is missed. I like a hut as much as the next guy, and trams and bolted rap lines and well marked trails. May be even more than the next guys as it all gets harder for me physically. But do we choose to make it easier for us at the moment or preserve it as best we can for someone else in the future? I dumb it down to this example for myself. 20 years ago I spotted a awesome line on a short, slightly over hanging wall of beautiful granite. I worked the moves on a TR...I could actually do a few of them in time. But in the 50m of climbing a few places were just beyond my skill or what I figured would ever be my skill. A natural line that could have been enhanced (read chipped) with little fanfare and no one would ever notice. But even chipped the climb would still have been within a letter grade or two of what I was capable of climbing for me to get up it. So I intentionally decided to leave it to someone else. The FA had lost it's priority. The route beccame more important to me. Imagine my dissappointment to come back 10 years later and find the same line climbed and the same connectinng holds chipped....and the climbing at no more than a letter grade or two above what the FA party was capable of at the time? And sadly the FA climber is now capable of climbing not just a few letter grades harder now but at least a full grade may be two plus several letter grades harder that his chipped route. The reason I tell this story is I think we need to think and act long term. And I wasn't intentionally when I walked away from that wall, I just figured there would always be someone better than me that wouldn't have to. But no one got the chance. We need to think about what we do and how it will impact the next generation and several after that. I think the world we live in is what we make of it. That wall could have been one of the first 5.14s or harder in Washington. One that Rudi's 12 year old kid could have flashed, instead it is just one of many chipped 5.12s of little consequence. No matter our differing thoughts on the subject it is a good conversation to be having.

I see only one end result from this conversation...extremely limited human access and a bigger fee management system. I don't think RNP does a very good job. More fees but not so sure of what services I get for those fees and sure don't like the paper work you have to go through to enjoy the park. My point on Vantage is it is over run by people. The resulting human waste and environmental impact has been to date, uncontroled and devastating. The Enchantments are a good example of how limited access has "saved" that area. As DPSmith points out "saved" is an interesting term at Colchuck. Not that I personally like the permit system because I don't like asking permission to go to the mtns. But I aint the King and I'm not thrilled about that either. I think the point is missed. Europe has no wilderness left. We do. I don't think the Euro model is a good one to copy. I would rather have limited access than destroy what little wild resources we do have. Adding huts and marked trails can be good things for people but more than likely it is just a way to direct traffic to one area and trash it, to save some place else already long over used and abused. Anyone ever thought of just not trashing the place first time around......and cleaning up what has been done while we are there? The Alberta hut is a fairly common destination now. I suspect the traffic is more than 5 fold into Alberta and the "hole" of N. Twin and Columbia. But the hike was a lot more serious and there was less travel back there when getting over Wooley Shoulder was a full day's walk on your own in and out. Back to Vantage? We can't seem to solve a small problem like that...in an incredibly fragile eco system. Why not? If you saw Vantage through my eyes and the past 30 years you would be truely shocked and worse, saddened to see what we as climbers (and only climbers) have done there. Take an even smaller example. Dishman in Spokane. Once a beatiful little piece of rock and scenery in the middle of town. Then it got popular with the ever growing herd of ecologically uncaring climbers and literally became a outdoor rock gym, with bolt on holds and all. I don't think the issue is, "lower environmental impact by limiting areas of travel". I think the real issue is the need to lessen the human traffic. And more importantly get those that do use the environment as our play ground, to take care of it better. We are simply "loving it to death". And once trashed..rehab is generally the last thing done if it is ever done.. From what I have seen generally it is....left at status quo.....and you (the organizations involved) move on. For my own pleasure I'd like to see a couple of huts in the Enchantments and bolted rap lines on DT. But I don't think either would be a sound choice for future generations to enjoy the Enchantments as we have. There in lies the rub. Should we make that choice for them or lower the impact so they get a chance to have a similar experience to ours 50 or 100 years from now? I've climbed in Europe. Going back for a couple of months this winter again. Nothing like Chamonix in the world and I love it for what it is. But if you asked me to choose Chamonix or the Enchantments as our legacy I'd want it to be the Enchantments. We can still make that choice. It was lost long ago in Europe.

Ha, ha We've both been around awhile Don. I have to think that Piggot's Route (V,6) in 1960 was just about as hard physically and way harder mentally than the Hurting is by today's standards. Certainly less folks capable of climbing at that standard in 1960. Straight shafted axes, many times 10 point crampons even then and generally wool clothing and terrible gear and ropes. I started "ice" climbing in the late '60s before I got out of high school. And figured I was a real "ice climber" by the early '70s. But it was a good long time before I knew anyone that could climb Canadian V's and then only after Terrordactyls arrived in the US/Canada. "Scottish Winter Grades: These apply to ice and mixed conditions and are used primarily by climbers familiar with Scottish conditions. Roman numerals are the overall grades, while Arabic numbers are the technical grade of the hardest section. Scottish technical ratings are approximately 1 generous numeral higher than equivalent Water Ice or M-grades. Technical grade 5 is relatively straightforward, 6 is somewhat technical mixed climbing, and 7 and 8 are much more intricate, including harder snowed-up rock. The current range is 4-9. A complete grade is expressed as VI,8. I: Snow gullies and easy ridges. II: Steep snow where two ice tools may be required but technical difficulties are short. Possible difficult cornice exit. III: Mixed ascents of moderate rock routes; icy gullies; sustained buttresses. IV: Steep ice with short vertical steps or long pitches up to 70º, or mixed routes requiring advanced techniques. V: Sustained ice to 80º or mixed climbs with linked hard moves. Climbs are difficult, sustained, and/or serious. VI: Vertical ice and highly technical mixed routes. Grade VI and above routes have exceptional overall difficulties. VII:Multi-pitch routes with long sections of vertical or thin ice, or mixed routes with lots of highly technical climbing. VIII-IX: The hardest routes in Scotland. Canadian Winter." Well sorted kit for '75. On a IV 4, (or IV 5 depending on who you talk to) which was pleanty steep in the day. Terrodactyls, Dachstein mitts, rigid SMC crampons, Whillians harness and leather single boots in a Peter Carman Super gaitor.

I suspect he was talking about the other Glenwood. Colorado hardman classic bitd! Good enough to make the cover shot of Climbing Magazine.

And you think it is hard now? http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/our-history.html

Great info, thanks. Local charity project, that everyone will love when/if i get it done

cross fit it aint the arrow, it is the indian

Yep, look at Europe. Route names painted on the cliffs, cement cairns and red numbered paint marks to get you to the hut or on the trail. Yea, look to Europe for climbers that have no clue in a wilderness setting or how to follow a trail. How about we clean up our own shit and pick up after others no so inclined and actually stay on the trails that are there and don't cut the switch backs on the way down. Sure areas need management. Look at Vantage. A few friends and I climbed there for years....with little impact. Then a little word of mouth at a WSU Alpine Club slide show and shortly there after all the asses showed up. It was a beautiful desert environment, now it is a trash heap. Ya, we do need managment but how about we start with something simple like the issues @ Vantage.

Matrix/Quantum Tech are both sweet tools. A few down sides, like the problematic head and pick replacement. But no one argues how well they climb.

Easy to peal off the rubber and have a decent tool. "The original Chouinard or Black Diamond X-15 Axes with the plain carbon fiber/fiberglass over aluminum shafts .... no bonded rubber or BRS as they were known." Same carbon fiber aluminum shaft under the rubber. I still have a couple of the axes. The original curved picks are a bit hard to come by these days.

Polar Cirus, Weeeping Wall, Curtain Call, Snivelling gully ect. All of which I have also done on a 45m rope. Way easier to carry lwt twins these days. V threads can make raps any length you want. If there is ice of course. 45M ropes were the standard for years. Then 50m and now 60m. 45m ropes are great to climb on and carry. Nothing shorter beats a 70m rap. Always a trade off. Climb where others do and the raps are likely to be fixed (v threads or rock) and you end up short without a 60m rope today generally. If you are on routes that require full length raps, but few truly do. pricing? Try justropes.com I have been happy with there prices....sale prices are good. If you are only going to have ONE rope....do yourself a favor and buy a 60 no matter what it is.

One day ascent of Liberty Crack in '73. Interupted by a 150' fall onto a hip belay from almost exactly this same position Summit bivy, Alaska May '76. Snowed off a 5.11 FA in the '80s Back to finish it later A decent solo in '88 But who cares about BITD This is from 3 days ago. Life is very, very good! Get out and rock! End of the guiding season...mid '80s...and a belated toast to all of you! This thread got me so fired up this morning I am now singing, "I am too sexy for my pants, I am too sexy for my ants, I am too sexy for..what my dog? .... and on and on No wonder i climb, i'm truly nuts...thanks for the help here!

60m 7.7mm Beal ice twin. I like them a lot for ice and alpine. Buy one and you have a good 30m alpine set up. If you like it buy the 2nd. I wouldn't suggest going back to a 50m rope. Simply because most everything that is fixed will be a 60 these days.

Thanks guys. Bill is this the one you suggest? http://www.mytoolstore.com/bosch/hamdri36.html I likely know more about womens heels than drills or what I need in a drill.

Got one? Quick cash for the right drill.

Canmore got 10cm of snow today but there was nothing on the ground Sunday night when we left. Cold there now. Road in was clear and dry to the parking lot.