Dane

Any more feed back on how the Spantiks worked out?

Our thoughts and prayers go out to his family at their loss. Otto was a fun guy to be around. We first met working at Mtn Gear in the mid '80s. Otto spoke broken English back then and it always embarrassed him. He told me stories of climbing in the Czech republic using terrible gear on what sounded like really, really hard routes winter and summer. His climbs in Europe and locally were impressive enough to highlight that point. Those climbs included having done most of the harder alpine routes in the Enchantments 20 years ago. Harder routes yet in the Canadian Rockies including an early solo of Whiteman Falls in terrible conditions. That one left me shaking my head in awe. But the story that most impressed me and he spoke little about was walking over the mtns with his family to get out of the then oppressive, communist ruled, Czech Republic. This when they actually shot people leaving the iron curtain. His courage, convictions and the love of his family became clear in that short conversation. Freedom wasn't just an idea to Otto. It was something he worked hard to gain. I never heard that story repeated. Otto had been trained as an engineer by the state. Last I talked with him (a few years ago) he was happy to be working and successful as an Engineer again. But there was never a doubt he was happiest in the mtns. I wasn't surprised to hear he was working at Mtn Gear again 20 years later. Or that his last adventure was shared with his son. God bless them both.

Hey Joe just to be fair. Randy, Dave and I did the 1st FA of Sudden impact on the pins Randy had placed in the previous week via rappel. The only reason Dave and I were invited on SI for the FFA was we had given Randy so much shit about placing more fixed pins on a Chimney crack. (the shit continiued for the pins in Amoral Raider's as well) The 3 of us had done Ill/FF earlier in the day. The FFA of SI was the real goal for the day. Larry Peterman and I had tried the route the week before. Larry had fallen and hung on Randy's pre placed pins. So I had TR'ed the route. Randy had as well when placing the pins and working the crack with a hammer. My preference would be that someone take a good look at the crack (from rappel if needed) and try RPs in the now obvious pin scars. (heck they are big scars, some which you now climb on) It isnt that hard by today's standards and the fall is clean. UNI is a good example of what can be done clean. Also worth noting that fixed nuts aren't all that great on Chimney either. Kimmie (anchors) and Graystoke both had/have fixed nuts that had cables fried by lightening. Nice work on Illusions. FWIW I first placed pins on that route as well, but on lead (two). Then a year later, we came back and did it again and was able to pull the pins by hand...much like what Marty discribes on SI. Frost wedging is a bitch up there. On later ascents I did learn to appreciate how the new smaller TCUs worked in the same crack. [edited several times because of my weak memory)

Pat Mahoney did is a couple of times before the hold was broken. It was never lead in the earlier version.

Turns out that Brooke and buds did bolt two stations and one protection bolt on the last headwall from rappel. Not really what Ray implied happened by his original comments. (or at least how I read them) My take having climbed the S face a couple of times and looked at some of the line Brooke did is it was a good effort done in a style I understand and might have employed myself in similar circiumstances. I'll give credit where I think it is due. Looks to me like Brooke and buds did a good job on a hard route many have looked at and talked about but not had the energy or stones to pull off. I am not going to bust anyone's balls for a new 800' route that has one preplaced rap bolt.

Dispite Ray Burbon's (aka caveman) original claim, I doubt there are several new lines on Prusik that were bolted last summer. At least in one case the climber's aren't sponsored. " None of our the team (Marco Constant, Doug Ingersoll) are sponsored!" At least one does indeed work for Metolius, Brooke Sandahl. Their new 800' line has a total of 7 bolts for protection and another 6 on anchors. From Brooke, "This route is a bold traditional undertaking and with climbing up to 5.12b fairly technical and serious (some pitchs would probably be R rated). You will need a double set of cams to #9, triples on small units, a large selection of brass nuts, and stoppers. In these final three (short) pitches (crossing over to the south face and then back again to the west face), we placed 1 protection bolt and two stations (added on edit: these 5 bolts were done on rappel as Burbon originally impied) Our route takes the extreme south crack of the west face of the headwall (missing the whole main headwall) and ends in a wild foot & back chimney - belaying under the large visor which juts out over the west face. We did not see any evidence of rap bolting up the main headwall." Sounds like a nice climb to me and a good effort even with the 5 bolts added under less than stellar conditions. Again from Brooke and I would agree now knowing more of the details behind their ascent. "It is definitely in keeping with the history and traditions of the area, while possibly raising the bar a little bit. I highly suggest you have a go at this route if your interested in high quality granite crack / face climbing." It would seem that the "rap bolted headwall", wasn't by most accounts. This isn't a big help though. Peter sez:

Joe Lind, tall skinny guy with blonde hair, talks alot?

I use a sling and rack small to large, front to back. I'll rack specifically for a difficult climb where I know or can easily guess the order they will be needed. Free biners and QDs in the back of the gear. Long slings...if you use/need them over the shoulder. Take a look at each pitch and put the gear sling on the side that makes the most sense as Dru noted. Never been a big fan of racking on the harness unless it is a bolted sport route where you just clip and go, no need to decide which piece to grab. Too much gear makes it hard to climb at your potential. Too little can make for some long run outs. If you are still figuring it all out take "enough", don't be shy. One of the things that makes a good trad climber is plugging in the right stuff with little effort. Finding what you need quickly is a BIG part of that. I like color coded slings on my cams. Wires by size, one or two sizes to a biner. For good practice try leading a crack of moderate difficulty for your ability with lots of different size placements and lace it up on lead a few times. Never use the same piece of gear in the same spot. You'll be amazed how quickly you get at choosing the right piece on your rack if you have the time and energy to look for the right piece of gear and not worry about winging off. Try both a sling and your harness and decide which you like best. I like a sling to get the gear high and away from my feet and being able to see everything with little effort right in front of me. Others like the lower center of gravity from a harness rack an have no problem finding where they put each piece just by feel. Play with both styles on easy leads and decide for yourself what works best for you.

That wouldn't be a step Matt that would be a huge leap. For some every route on Chimney is scary. I wouldn't blow it off as a troll. Several have asked about doing just that...even though they have yet to repeat them free.

There are some short climbs east of Steven's also that are worth a visit this time of year. Martin has been in to Stevens. The ones I am thinking of are approached via St Regis basin just past the summit and not the normal Stevens approach up the creek bed. Short steep faces you can see to the west from the valley floor. Fred Spicker on Stevens. Link below has more info on getting there for a ny'er http://www.summitpost.org/mountains/photo_link.pl?photo_id=80665&object_id=2530&type=mountain&mountain_id=2530&route_id=

East face of the wall climbing out of Leigh Lake offers a good alpine climb early in the season with some water ice on it usually. More mixed than ice when i did it this time of year but a good climb. Pretty much like some of the easy Canadain Rockies with only slightly better rock. Road head is close from Libby. Trail in is 4 miles or so to the base of the face. Check a topo map it is longer than you might suspect. Get on top on a good day and you'll see others. Snowshoe is almost 9K feet and just behind it.

Matt, I made a formal offer of finacial support at the BOD meeting that would be hard to refuse. I believe "we", the climbing community as a whole, will continue to be welcomed at Dishman because of that offer and continued good communication in the future. Nothing in stone just my take on it. I suspect that their will be conditions to that that access but I have not seem what they are, if there is anything. As I said before I would like to wait until the land owner comes to us with a management plan that they can live with or at the very least asks us to offer them a more specific one than what I presented. I gave them most every option available and then my thoughts on what might be appropriate. You have talked to their land managager. I trust his judgement on the climbing issues if required and will abide by their requests. I believe the concerns for future management are the climbing community's general concerns and the land owner's as well: chipped holds bolted on holds number of bolts now on the wall bolted cracks replacing the TR anchors that were pulled trash control graffiti limit access of automobiles human waste While none of us may agree on everything that has been done about Dishman I do think we are better represented as a cohesive group than as a group of squabbling children. Having a moderate middle ground is workable if we can all agree on what actually is a "moderate stance". And be willing to act upon that stance. I gave the land owner all our contact info, the Access Fund, Lane's, your's, the Spokane Mountaineers, Marty's, the DHNA, as well as mine and recommended several times that they talk to all involved. I think they will let us know when they are ready. I highly recommend anyone else interested to contact the water district BOD to offer their own suggestions.

Lane, I respect your position. I don't agree with it however. If your position or that of the Access Fund has been misrepresented, so has mine, intentionally or not. Fact is we are a group at war with itself. Anyone misrepresenting that fact is lying. The land owner needs to know that so they can make good choices for their own interests. We are infact a group of "anarchic, unruly climbers". That hasn't changed thank goodness. I doubt we will ever loose access to Dishman if for no other reason than the land owners now have a finacial incentive to keep us climbing there and a land manager still willing to work with us after a little reasonable communication. The conflict between our group's interests @ Dishman and yours come directly from you suggesting to me personally, Dishman stay "as is" to maintain access as the Access Fund RD. Futher distance was necessary when I was told "Dishman wasn't important, how Dishman effected other projects was important". Let's not shy away from those facts. If those statements are not fact and were misrepresented by me (I can admit to a mistake if that happened) what is the AF vision of Dishman in the future? How about we stop pussy footing around and get a vision of what the AF thinks is acceptable at Dishman in the future? When I see anyone from the AF or WCC stand up in public and say the chipping and holds have to go and we'll fix them for you, I'll be right behind you. Till then it is just words that you guys waffle on at the crux. To keep implying that I would rather have Dishman closed is disingenuous at best. If you actually believe that you have no clue what I am about. Which is partly my fault I suspect. Am I afraid of Dishman being closed? No! If we as climbers can't be better stewards of the land I don't think we have the right to climb there or anywhere for that matter. I have BTDT as have many in the NW. Peshastin was closed for years and reopend (with a great deal of Access Fund help I might add) to be a better place to climb and a better physical environment. That idea may not fit with the current national agenda of the AF but it might well be the best answer at Dishman. I didn't suggest that to the BOD nor do I now in public. I had 4 days to digest our conference call before the BOD meeting. My feelings changed after reflecting on that converstaion and what I heard over the following days by those more involved. Dishman "as is" is not acceptable. I would rather work directly with the land owner than keep guessing exactly what the agenda is here. In response to Matt. Matt said: "I didn't even know until now that such "holds" existed" Matt you keep trying to be involved in something you are not a part of. This from the guy who just a few posts ago was going to give us a "complete history" of Dishman.

Gosh Matt and I thought you were an attorney and formally trained to be speciifc. Lets be specifc and not misrepresent anything here. I did not say what you have quoted. Your first quote is this: "Dane said he would rather cause the area to be closed than to allow a single offending hold remain." Now you want to change that to, "let me get this straight: are you saying you would rather cause the area to be closed than to allow a single bolted on hold to remain?" You said yes." At Dishman there are bolted on holds, glued on holds, many chipped holds and a stud or two used as foot holds. I find them all offensive. There are/were two bolted on gym holds however on two different climbs. To be specific and not misleading, I said "I would rather see Dishman closed than leave up bolted on gym holds in place. I have also offered the land owners a reasonable financial incentive and a plan to keep climbing access open and acceptable to them. You on the other hand have done nothing but offer misinformation and a misrepresentation of the facts. In the same context you were preaching compromise to keep the area open. Compromise what? Leaving it "as is"? Which has been your public position. Or better yet I'll quote you on Dishman. "No comment". Get your shit together if you want to quote me. Your credibility is zero on Dishman. You need to find another forum to push your weak agenda.

I never thought I would give more than a passing glance at anything political. Never joined anything for long. It is now obvious this issue needs long term support by all of us. My involvement at Dishman and being forced to look deeper at what the current organizations offer me and like minded friends has been less than inspiring. I find that I have more incommon with climbers willing to speak their minds than attorneys offering dbl talk and conflict avoidance to retain access at all costs. Been a number of folks willing to disagree with the current status quo on issues like Dishman, Infinate Bliss and the most recent rap bolted route on Prusik as examples. I think access at any cost is a terrible idea. I believe the land owners should be the first to know how their land is affected, not the last. I think open public debate is required and important as well as helpful to all involved. If during every issue on climbers, ethics and access we are represented only by the AF and their offshoot the WCC then I believe a majority of climbers are not represented on many occasions. It is time we get together as a group and make a dissenting opinion known. I can tell you from recent converstaions that the ALPS, the Forest Service and the land owners at Dishman would welcome the help. I suspect they is just the tip of the iceberg. What do you think? Suggestions?

Cool, thanks guys!

The Dishman land manager and I have been in contact in recent weeks. The Dishman land owner has not been forced into anything. I will repeat this again. "The Dishman land owner has been concerned by climber's actions that effect their property for over a year now." To deny that or add some kind of spin to it is a fallacy on anyone's part and a blatant misrepresentation of the facts. I didn't drag the land manager out to Dishman, he had seen the damage done there by climbers and was very concerned long before I got involved. Matt calls Dishman He also said he would tell the real history of Dishman when appropriate. Aren't they all small conflicts until others get involed Matt? Dishman is just the tip of the iceburg no matter how you have managed to bury that here on CC.com or in the press. The AF and WCC can thank their stars that the land manager at Dishman was also a climber and willing to fight his bosses on keeping the climbing area open. If there is a split in the climbing community (and I think there is) on ethics and access it would seem to stem for the inability of the Access Fund and its representatives to willingly involve the land owners or managers quickly and then take a hard line stance on the obvious ethical issues when required. I think there is a place for bolts. I don't think there is a place for bolt on holds, chipping, power bolting in a wilderness area or access at all costs. I think the land managers and land owners have the right to know both sides of the climbing communities interests and passions. To those of us who have taken a closer look at the AF and the WCC you appear to be pro bolting and all that implies. Until the Access Fund and WCC has the courage to stand up in public and condemn those actions and actually become the good stewards of the land they claim to protect neither orgainzation will represent the majority of climbers. By your suggestions we should all be singing "Kumbaya" while things like Infinate Bliss and Dishman stand in the climbing community at the opposition of Federal law and the property's owners disgust.

Never said I want Dishman closed. I have argued the opposite to the land owners in fact, gym holds, chipping and all. Matt where do you get this shit? Too much acid as an undergrad? Next time you misquote me in public to the extent you have here we'll be discussing that fact further in a different forum. Matt sez The first reasonable comment on Dishman you have made to date, Matt. Gary if your questions were actual concerns my apologies. My answer has not changed. Take a look a what I previously posted. Lane's versions of the events at the BOD meeting shouldn't differ from mine.

Pays to remember this is a business to most involved. You want to change things tell them it is bad business. How about this as a start? To: climb@bdel.com, info@metoliusclimbing.com , info@petzl.com Re:Rap Bolting on Prusik Peak "My understanding is your sponsored climbers rap bolted (via hand drill) the headwall there this summer. Avoiding the obvious and unclimbed thin seam. I have supported all of you over the years. How about you inturn support the future of our sport with a public statement condemning such actions as irresponsible and illadvised? "Silence over time is acceptance".

No hyperbole, just the facts as they have been presented to me. I'll leave this discussion for you to make up your own mind on what the AF and WCC represent.

Being naive to the politics that are present on this BBS I have asked for help here and posted opinions. My recent involvement at Dishman has pointed out things that I think need public airing. Listed below is the condensed version of my communication with WCC and the Access Fund members to this point. Andy Fitz as the regional rep for the AF and now a member of WCC: 3 unreturned phone calls and apologies for "loosing them" when face to face. Additionally the public request I stop representing any Spokane climbers on Dishman or speaking on Dishman in public because I have polarised the community. That because I have an opinion and willing to state it in public. Michael Lane...new regional rep for the Access Fund living in Spokane: "I think leaving Dishman "as is" is a worthwhile compromise to maintain access to Dishman". That includes bolted cracks, bolted on gym holds and retro bolted climbs. Then Michael sends one of his employees to stir up the pot on CC.com knowing damn well exactly what was said at the Dishman BOD meeting since he was there and spoke. Matt Perkins: "we haven't told the entire history of Dishman as of yet" and "it isn't as serious as some contend", all this from a single short conversation with the Dishman Land manager. BTW as recently as this morning the land manager disagrees with Matt's simplistic view point. Let me clear that one up...Matt you are either lying at worse and mistaken at best. Either way when you aren't involved, how about waiting until you actually do know something worth posting. (same thing you have suggested to others here many times) I asked both organizations over 4 months ago to get involved at Dishman. Never happened until a couple of weeks ago. And guess what, now they want to keep Dishman, "as is". How about we start calling it like it really is...the Access Fund and the WCC are for bolting and access at any cost. Their advertising, mottos and public proclaimations be damned...looks like a duck, walks like a duck. Take a look at their stance on "Infinite Bliss" for further edification. I invite, Matt, Michael, Andy or anyone else to publically explain the differences between the public face and the obvious difference in their actions by the WCC and the AF.

Micheal Lane, Access fund, in phone conversation to me 10/05/04. Matt Perkins, WCC, in phone conversation related to me by the Water distict manager, 10/11/04. Michael Lane: Matt: Matt you had not been involved till last week and now you know the "entire" history but won't share it? That should be an amazing revelation. I invited both The Access Fund and the WCC to this party in July. Couldn't get Matt or Andy involved or answer an email or phone call as late as last week. Now 4 months later they want to broker a compromise. Pardon me being a little suspect as to their intentions after being told by spokesmen in both camps. The Access Fund has done an incredible amount of good work. The WCC is a new group and as yet untested. Both might well be able to help all sides involved. Adding intentional disinformation and insinuation to discredit any arguement isn't a help and very disheartening. Trying to redirect the converstaion to "access" and something that is is comfortable and convenient to the AF and WCC isn't going to fly far. How about a public policy statement from both the AF and WCC on the following? chipping retro bolting/ bolts on natural cracks adding gym holds to natural rock I was asked by the members of the WCC and AF to drop out of this public discussion. When either group acknowledges in public the real problems and then gives a reasonable solution on how to address them at Dishman, I will. Till then, I am more inclined to take the land owner's side, wait for their answer, and then meet any reasonable requirement their BOD has to maintain climber access. The land owner's only agenda is preserving their land in a natural state and limiting their liability. At least now, with no help from the AF or WCC, they can better judge how to do that for themselves. After 4 months and a number of discussions I still have no idea what the agendas are by some now offering to "help". My intention was to leave the public discussion and wait for the the land owner's response. My suggestion is start another thread and leave out the intentional disinformation and insinuation. If the end result is the AF and the WCC came to the "rescue" and maintain access to Dishman, in its current condition, nothing will have been done.

Hey Gary, how about being a little less disingenuous. First what you state as fact is not. This is: I told Michael Lane (the new regional rep of the Access Fund, your climbing partner and boss) I was not comfortable with his views on Dishman, "leaving it as is, stautus quo" to maintain access. Which is why I went to the Access Fund National office and ended up on a 1 hour conference call which included members of the WCC and Lane to clarifiy the "access at all costs" is not acceptable. Hard as that was for them to spit out. Same reason the Access Fund and Lane were represented at the BOD meeting...I invited them. I am not willing to accept status quo at Dishman as it is today. The stated policy of the Access Fund and WCC is "access and enviromental protection as equal partners". At Dishman we have both issues. That is unusual I think. Climber's damaging the environment on private property is one of the major issues causing problems with access. Pretty obvious who paid for the ad when you asked the question. You also know what was said at the BOD meeting. Lane may not have ageed with everything said and I made that point during the presentation but he heard it, as did Marty Bland and the representative from the Dishman Hills Natural Area because they too were invited. But they were NOT on the agenda either, through their own choosing. I was. Not my job to do theirs. My concerns are these, as I and their land manager (and a good many of the BOD as well at the meeting) have stated. Stop chipping Stop adding bolts Don't add gym holds to the wall fix the damage that has been done That and keeping the area open for climbiing. I argued at the meeting that the area not be closed. Which some on the BOD suggested. (no one has ever had permission to actually climb there formally in the 24 years we have) That and the area have limited access to control the dumping and that the vast majority of bolts stay on the wall. Nothing secret about any BOD meeting including this one. Nothing was going to be decided that night. Never expected it would. But access could have changed that night. I simply presented reasonable options and some finacial aid the BOD might choose to help deal with land use and climber issues. BOD meetings are not public forums, which is why I didn't mention it here. If you want to talk with them you call up the secretary and schedule yourself into the next meeting. Which I did. Lane, the ACCESS FUND and WCC all have the info I gave them to schedule their own time at the meetings if they care to. I don't represent just myself or just my feelings at Dishman as DRRG. Nor do I or DRRG claim to represent everyone in the climbing community. Neither I or DRRG will promote access to Dishman at all costs as some have proposed. I think the land owner has every right to know all the issues that climbing brings to them. Another point where I and some in the National organization's reps disagree. The national organizations might well get involved. But you, Gary and Lane are admittily a transient population to Spokane by your own comments. I still have family and property in Spokane. Grady and Marty at least climbed at Dishman for years. As have I and my buddies. My take is the national organizations have ulterior motives in keeping Dishman open that have nothing to do with Dishman and the climbing environment there. At this point I think there is good reason to have more than the ACCESS Fund and WCC involved. If for no other reason than neither has done anything to this point and won't until access is denied is my take on it. I'd rather be proactive. My and DRRG concern is Dishman....nothing more and nothing less. I am willing to take my time and money to help the land owner preserve the area. Truth is I would rather be climbing in my spare time and spend the money I am using for this bs for something more useful than climbers who have to ask, "what does the ad mean?". Be happy to hand this off to anyone who is willing to follow through with all concerns. No one has offered to this point To explain the ad more clearly, I think what has happened at Dishman and what is happening elsewhwere on the rock is fucked up...people need to stand up and say so to those that do things like what is pictured imo. No question a few don't agree with me, my opinions or my approach. That is fine. I don't agree with what has been done or said to this point by a good many. You don't like what I am doing about Dishman get off your ass and make your own voice heard. I think these issues are important at Dishman and at a National level. So do many other climbers. "Rock and Ice" clearly points that out in the current issue without my ad. Nice that we live in a country and play at a sport that welcomes all view points. How about instead of a pissing match with me, do something useful and schedule your own meeeting with the BOD and then lets all wait to see what they come up with as a management plan at Dishman...and how we can all help? Thankfully, I am done talking about it until then.

Been climbing myself. Might ask the guy sitting 20 feet from your desk everyday what was said at the meeting as he spoke to the BOD as well.

Not had anyone call me names since I was in jr. high. Happily the internet is such a safe place I obviously post my own opinions but I have also stated the facts. If anyone actually involved wants to challenge my perspective of who has been involved and what has happened to this point feel free. Credibility starts with using your own name and saying in person what you write on the Internet. I do both. Andy deKlerk and Ear Wax wall? That is one story I had not yet heard.