Dane

On the other side of this issue I have had extensive and friendly converstions with Marty Bland, Russ Shutz and Brian Raymond (the choosen representative of their group) and others involved. I continue to have contact with Marty and Brian, both for opinions and to give them continual updates on what I and others are doing. I have encouraged Marty and Brian (and those they represented at the REI meeting) to be involved and stay involved at all levels including the discussions and suggestions. They set the clean up date at the REI meeting and all involved agreed to show. There was little discusssion past that date on either side until the cleanup. Of course one side of the issue failed to show. That makes communication really difficult. One of the first reasons given for what has been done on the wall at Dishman was "the area is a garbage dump". I have been told that from people who should know better. I hear the photos I post don't give a realistic perception of the Dishman trash heap even today. None of that is true of course. Dishman is and has been one of the most unique and beautiful places to sport climb in Washington or any where else for that matter. That says a lot in my book. It can easily be even better with a little care and effort. Secondly, there is the arguement that I claim the right of ownership of routes I did the first ascents of 24 years ago. And that "ownership" is a dated idea and the newest generation of climbers is free to alter climbs as they see fit. Let me clear that up. I don't claim ownership of any route at Dishman. Although I do think the first ascent ethic should be respected on any climb short of being unsafe. Much of what I first climbed needed additional bolts to be climbed safety. Nice that someone took the time and effort to make those climbs safer. No problem with retro bolted climbs at Dishman that had the need. 5.8 and 5.9 cracks or even a easy 5.11 that can be protected with little effort don't need bolts to make them safe. Third, "this wasn't a problem till Dane made it one". Known at least to Grady, the land owner has been unhappy for over a year at the current state of development at Dishman. I have pointed it out to the climbing community. The land owner certainly knew and climbers involved have known (or should have known) for awhile now. All of this was unknown to me until late this fall. I could go on and debunk the litany of reasons that have been used to justify what has been done at Dishman but let me put those three to rest. What are the specific issues at Dishman? Simple? These are the concerns recently voiced to me by the land manager and the issues that threaten climber access to Dishman rocks 1. chipped holds 2. bolted on gym holds 3. excessive bolting These are the only real discussion.

And just what is the issue at hand from your perspective Eric? Please justify the chipped olds, bolts in 20 year old crack climbs and gym holds bolted to the wall. Are those tactics the norm in your climbing. Are they accepted in climbing as a whole, sport or trad? You want peace, brotherhood and understanding. I would like to hear how you see these issues being resolved. Remember the land manager's issue with these three items were stated to Grady face to face a year ago and then promptly ignored. My involvement came months later. Let's be honest this isn't an issue between trad climbers and sport climbers.

Just a heads up. The land owner and land manager have been discussing all the options available to them for over a year. About the same time that the local activists started adding bolts and stopped talking to the land manager when confronted about the new holds and additional bolts. This was a trival issue that those involved should have solved long ago.

Hey Eric get a clue. The first 9 bolts that were chopped were on crack climbs I did easily (sheesh they are 5.8 /5.9 for chrimney sake) on natural pro 20 years ago. Then two more bolts were chopped from climbs many have done over the last 15 years that had additional bolts added in the last couple of years. Finally the gym holds that were removed from the wall isn't a religion or a ethical debate it is just stupid done on a piece of granite in a natural environment. You want to say it is tit for tat...sorry dude, it aint. Adding bolts to lines climbed years ago or adding bolts to routes aready bolted is BS. Gym holds is as I said, "is stupid". The majority of retro bolting at Dishman I agreed with, it simply was needed. What was chopped, need to be, simple as that. You want to make comparisons make realistic ones. What we really have is one or two guys going against a 40 year old climbing tradition and totally outside the norm of climbing ethics today. They are forcing their idiotic standards on us and any future climber. You are willing to accept that standard...I am not. More importantly neither is the land owner. The excuse originally used for this mess on the bolting side, after adding 200+ bolts to a crag that for years had just under 50, is it was a "urban garbage heap". That was untrue and they knew it. They were unwilling to show for a cleanup even after they set and agreed to the date in a public meeting. Slothrop is partly correct, they didn't show up for the date of "their" cleanup. They did show up for the REI meeting, represented by an attorney of all things. But there was no compromise made there. No compromise because the bolters involved wouldn't budge on what they had done to an already to a 25 year old sport climbing area. I hate the term sport climber and trad climber. I have clipped enough pro and bolts that I'm not looking for a label. I just climb. I have seldom wanted to interfer with anyone else's climbing. Some have gotten a case of the ass because they think this is a sport/trad debate. It isn't. What really is happening here is a small group of vandals are trashing your rock resources. I find it hard to belive that anyone who has ever climbed outside would stand for what has been done at Dishman being repeated at your local crag. For no other reason that respect for the rock and future climbers. I see this as a simple disagreement. You either accept chipped holds on natural rock, bolting crack climbs and adding a gym holds to real rock or you don't. I don't.

Interesteing perspective Dave.

Ya, it was. Too bad they replaced all the bolts on Thursday and further destroyed the rock for their own vanity.

After the original meeting at REI those interested from both sides of the issue ajourned to the local pub. Much was discussed, much was agreed on. Nothing that was done at the cleanup on 9/26 was outside of that discussion.

The land owner has been comtemplating closing the area to all climbing because of the chipping, additional bolting and the bolted on gym holds that have appeared over the last year or so. The cleanup last week on the wall and in the area was appreciated by them. But the land owner thought more bolts should come off the wall and the top rope anchors should be reinstalled after last weeks efforts.

I wanted to be the first to personally congradulate the idiots who went back to Dishman yesterday and rebolted the cracks and added the old artificial foot hold. Make sure you introduce yourself to me. Good work dumbshit! You have just guaranteed the closure of Dishman to all climbing in the future.

In 1972 the climbing community was pretty small. The Chouinard Catalog influenced an entire generation's climbing ethics. You would be hard pressed to find another piece of writing that did so much to direct climbing's future. Pretty amazing really when you realize the catalog was also intended a sales tool. thanks for the post.

Off White, yes the dialog and what got done on the wall "might" have changed if both sides would have showed. It also might have eliminated some of the undeserved hard feelings between the different sides of the debate. I knew from talking to the the leading sport activists what their ideas were on what had happened at Dishman and how it could be fixed. There really wasn't much disagreement from either side on how to fix it. Sadly the two most responsible for the majority of damage, by all accounts, refused to be part of the discussion or cleanup. The mortar came out very clean and almost undetectable in old bolt holes and chipped/drilled holds. You can buy it by the tube in the hardware stores and use a caulking gun to apply it. Some of the other damage was cleaned up with a cutting torch and O/A tanks. I just spoke with Marty a minute ago and I think we agree this is a win/win for all involved with more cooperation to come on Dishman in the land use issue. The rocks are currently private property. It is only a garbage pit if we allow it.

thanks will but i was only a part of this. thanks to all involved. it is a start however.

A dozen folks showed up yesterday for the Dishman cleanup that was scheduled two months ago at a public meeting with the majority involved present. We hauled out a couple of old wrecked cars with a donated bobcat first. Then put a barrier in the old roadway to help slow the garbage dumping and hauled out a little over 2000#s of garbage by measured weight in a donated flat bed truck. That took most of the day with people representing The Spokane Mountaineers, Mountain Goat, Mountain Gear, Omega Pacific and the The Dishman Hills Natural Area joining in. None of those involved with the original chipping, retro bolting or adding gym holds to the wall cared to show up for the agreed cleanup date. Unplanned, but not unexpected, the group present yesterday, as a whole, made their suggestions on how the climbing wall portion of the cleanup should be done, route by route. A general consensus was formed and the offending sections cleaned up. The result was three artifical holds or their left overs were removed, a half dozen plus obviously chipped/drilled pockets/hand holds were filled with mortar and total of 16 bolts were removed. 9 of those in three different protectable cracks, first climbed over 20 years ago. What was left were two or three of the most recent routes (from many) are unclimbable at their past grade because artifical holds were filled or removed. Bolt chopping tally reads this: Three bolts were removed from previously established 20 year old sport climbs. 9 bolts were removed from easily protectable cracks. 4 additional bolts that could be clipped from arm's reach on the ground were removed. Conversation with the land manager clearly indicated they were not happy with the recent poliferation of new bolts and the artificial holds. Chipping is not condoned by the land owner or manager. Our welcome on this property is not unlimited if these trends continue further. Hopefully we (the entire climbing community) will be able to continue working with the current manager and land owner to eliminate garbage dumping and protect the resources at Dishman. A good step in that direction would be to now leave the Dishman rock "as is" and continue a real effort to police the garabage until, we as a group of interested climbers, can negotiate a land use agreement with the owner of the property.

Ya, shit, the land use managers are likely to decide we need more bolt ons, grid bolts, garbage dumped, route signage and chipped holds. What the hell was I thinking? The bastards are sure to wreck the place!

REI needed a name to book the room to this morning, so I made DRRG up on the spot and told them who I was and why we were asking for the space. I even asked why they didn't sell the local Marty Bland guide book. Hate to think you are being a dickhead about getting the community involved in Dishman, Marty. I just misread your tone I suspect. At your suggestion I booked the meeting room midweek from 7PM to closing at REI, as it should be easy for all to find and they have room for 100 people. Date far enough out that those who are interested can plan for it. The idea is to have a Spokane local involved (not sure who yet still asking), that has had nothing to do with the ethics issue. Someone that all sides can respect, and have them moderate a meeting during a discussion on the different views and then detail who is interested in the resource, (the rocks and area that is in a natural state that is usable for recreation) its future mangagement and how they want to be involved. I suspect we'll all get dedicated floor time to make our positions known but I will leave that up to the moderator on how the meeting is organized and ran. The land owner, the Dishman Hills Natural Area group, The Mountaineers, a couple of trail organizations (bikes and horse I think), Rock and Ice, local media, REI's recreation folks, the Access Fund, the WCC, City of Spokane and Spokane Valley, Spokane County are all invited and anyone else who is interested can add their 2 cents and see where we go from here.

Dishman Rocks Resource Group has scheduled a meeting room on Tuesday August 24, 7PM upstairs at the Spokane REI, 1125 N Monroe St Spokane, WA 99201 (509) 328-9900 Anyone interested in the Dishman Natural Area or climbing there is encouraged to attend.

Dishman Rocks Resource Group has scheduled a meeting room on Tuesday August 24, 7PM upstairs at the Spokane REI, 1125 N Monroe St Spokane, WA 99201 (509) 328-9900 Anyone interested in the Dishman Natural Area or climbing there is encouraged to attend.

Thanks Jon. Makes sense. My first impression was the thread was deleted since there was no shadow. My apologies for jumping to conclusions. Since this is how spray is definded how about a minute of your time and add a ethics section to the board? Since this discussion and the others mentioned are all about climbing? For the record INWR has a set of printed rules and if you violate that by a useless personal attack the post is generally going to get deleted. Similar rules are common on most civil BBS sites. New to climbing I know EC, good post. We agree more than you might first believe as does Marty I think. My intentional prodding of Grady and Marty was to get the people involved to admit to what they had done first and then get them to talk about some kind of compromise that all could agree to after seeing the extremes at Dishman. I keep seeing a safety issue mentioned that seems to justify over bolting . That I don't agree with. If climbing were so unsafe I think we would have a lot less climbers not a whole lot more. Hard to get anything done until you know the players and everyone decides it is in their best interest to be involved in the community.

Thanks Marty. Please ask the others involved to find a time that will work for them and we'll work the schedule for everyone.

First: It is a given...haven't we all. No clue who you are. Not really a part of the discussion is it? How about we stick to Dishamn instead of flexing every other post. Dick measuring can be done at home. Second: Bolt wars are lame. I'd rather be climbing in my spare time than arguing this horse shit. Third: The Pinnacles were closed for years. They are open again, state owned and well maintained. No one was thrilled when they were closed. But they are better now in every way. Minne is now public property and again better for it. As Fulton mentions there was a time, in the not too distant past, when Minne made Dishman today look like a national park. Fourth: Poor stewardship of a crag takes away any right you have to climb there in my book. I don't care if Dishman is closed down for the short term. Maybe that is what needs to happen if the local protagonists think what they have done @ Dishman is OK. So it is not a fear for me, living here or in Spokane. Fifth: It is a hell of alot better to be pounding on the key board here than pounding on each other or letting a rotohammer or a breaker bar speak for you. The suggestion is again for a meeting. We had one and one side showed. How about another with both sides in attendance? Marty? Grady?

Funny a discussion on ethics and bolting is now spray? That a typical CC.com decision Jon? I won't disgree that adding gym holds to real rock is spray but I don't think the discussion is.

You guys thought I was harsh deleting the drunks on INWR the other night Guess we have even more in common now being deleted from here as a group for discussing Dishman and INW climbing.

I have put up a few new routes in the last 35 years. You? I have no desire to lead by example. I have no interest in followers. I am more interested in the end result. So far, as a group, there is little agreement on what the problem is. Dishman is a problem to me. Simple as that.

Me, since you don't have the stones too. Any other stupid questions? And yes, the intention is to be even more heavy handed than Marty and crew if that is what it takes.