billcoe

I don’t think Joseph is saying that as much as the fact that he thinks Tim is at fault for: A) Producing a book that Joesph doesn’t approve of. B) Not adequately informing folks of the danger. For myself, I believe that is false criticism on both counts, and think we should share as we have an obligation to fellow climbers. It falls on us to help out people who are in need if we can be of some assistance to them. We should share with our bros if we can and be INclusive instead of EXclusive. Especially a place so close to town.

It's damned unpleasant and to be avoided. My route list, as did Jons, was given to Tim and I essentially don't have one anymore. Tim trimmed up a lot of the excessive verbage and kept some, and did a damned good job in doing so IMO. A lot of the 5 page cautionary tale I had in the front was by necessity cut down. I really don't want people to be getting hurt anywhere. There, here, ...anywhere. These questions do not get easily avoided. Same gig here: just did a new FA at a new place. Torn between bolts or not. Just cause my wide ass will fit in there......no bolts could mean someone getting hurt when they don't show up with a #12 valley giant....it's certainly worth considering, but at the end of the day, people make choices.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/editorials/2011790727_edit06greece.html?syndication=rss Seattle Times 2010. "Greece needs government spending reform Greece's problem is a government that spends more than it has, reflects The Seattle Times editorial board. And that is a problem not exclusive to the Greeks. Police clash with anti-government demonstrators Wednesday in Mytilene, Greece. THE crisis of public finance in Greece feels familiar. The Greek state ran deficits for years, under governments of the left and the right. With the recession, the deficit ballooned to 13.6 percent of Greece's economic output. In fiscal 2009 the U.S. deficit was 9.9 percent of output. America's deficit was not at the nosebleed level of Greece, but it was higher than in 65 years and almost three-quarters as high as Greece's. The Greek crisis is a warning that there are limits. Greece's debt is more than one year's entire national output, which ours is not yet. Greece has the further problem that it owes its debt in euros, a currency its central bank cannot print more of. The Greek government had to go hat in hand to France and Germany, reminding them of the billions in Greek bonds owned by French and German banks. Greece is being bailed out. But notice the price exacted from the people. Public workers in Greece, who get paid for 14 months a year, lose their extra month's pay at Christmas, and again at Easter, and are back to a celestial 12. Pensioners also lose the 13th and 14th months. The retirement age for women advances five years, to 65, the same as men. All this is being done by a socialist government. It didn't have much of a choice. The Greek government will also be clamping down on tax evasion by the wealthy. It will raise tax rates on fuel, alcohol and tobacco. It will raise the value-added tax, which is a kind of sales tax on various stages of production, to 23 percent from 21 percent. Greeks have responded with a general strike. The difficulty with general strikes, as Seattle learned with its own general strike 91 years ago, is gaining anything by doing them. Greece's problem is a government that spends more than it has. It cannot be fixed by quitting work and torching a bank. It can be fixed only by adjusting spending to the money available. And that is a problem not only for the Greeks."

Good on your guys for getting on it! That's figgan awesome. Post the full meal deal any time, it's your guy's place to say and do as you see fit. Tim is putting it in his next book, so if you want to bang out some new routes, do it now and send it into him as he really wants the info to be as current as possible. Hands on "Bewitched" on a clear warm day below. This is how you want it to be. I can tell I was face climbing too much back then, no scabs on the backs of my soft looking hands. Like right now I can see @ 30-40 scabs as I type from handjams last Saturday. I had tape and benzoin in my backpack too so no reason for it I guess. Kyle Silverman photo In 2009 the road finally cleared off like July 4th. We need a few warm days in a row still for it to get good up there I suspect. Here's a couple of links that you might find helpful. Look at the Tombstone road cam and it gives a close approximation of what it will be up there for you guys. It's the middle highway 20 one on this link. http://www.tripcheck.com/Pages/RCMap.asp?curRegion=4&mainNav=RoadConditions There are 3 cameras and the elevation is marked on them all. If it's clear a few days previous and doesn't rain before then you'll know what it will look like. Check the Feb shots below as indicative. A few days apart, and the snow just kept dumping through mar-april till it covered the camera over 20' up the pole. LOL! Here's the best snow depth link: http://www.wunderground.com/StateSnowDepth.asp?state=OR Clackamas Lake/Peavine Ridge use to be the best to look at as it was @3500 feet and very close in the same area. Clear Lake (near to Mt Hood) might be OK to use now as I don't see Clackamas now. If you click off to the right like say: Clear Lake, you will see it got dusted by an inch of snow this week. http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/nwcc/sntl-data0000.jsp?site=401&days=7&state=or Check out how fast it's melting this week from the Mud Ridge data. It started the week at 21 inches and is now only 6"! Woot! Soon that log will get sawn off by a hunter and the road will be clear. MUD RIDGE 06/07 0000 10.0 21.0 06/08 0000 9.0 20.0 -1.0 -1.0 06/09 0000 8.5 18.0 -0.5 -2.0 06/10 0000 7.5 16.0 -1.0 -2.0 06/11 0000 6.0 12.0 -1.5 -4.0 06/12 0000 4.5 10.0 -1.5 -2.0 06/13 0000 3.6 6.0 -0.9 -4.0 06/14 0000 2.2 6.0 -1.4 0.0 At least this will help you guys to know how many layers to bring. LOL! Here's the overview pic of the main wall. For some reason the blow up feature isn't working. I can email a larger vesion if you have to squint:-) Have fun!

You mean personal attacks and erratic hand waving aren't enough of a response to your questions, thoughts or suggestions? You want meaningful discourse? LOL Good luck with that Jim. It's going to be a long road back for Greece, which is why we need to get our financial house in order now, and not wait until it's so very painful.

Agreed. Don't want that. Jim has always stepped up to help out folks. Of course, that chick who stepped off the trail and rolled downhill by Lacakamas Lake the other day and had to be roped out by sar, all the signs in the world didn't help her. Back to this idea. In the interest of helping, I will add that the sign should be in English and Spanish of course and include "peligro precipicio". The sign could have a picture of multiple people falling on it much like the one above, but include some little ones too, to indicate that it is also not safe for children to fall off the cliff. And no rolling rocks down either on another sign. And something about dogs too. Or have a picture of a dog rolling off with the kids so that everyone will know that you mean dogs and kids. Some kind of sign, could be a blanket statement like this: I think that inexperienced people have always been a danger to themselves except in places where the danger has been drilled out of the experience for everyone. ie, a line of bolts ending at an anchor. We just need to help folks out if we can and maybe they will survive. Olsens book already tags it, perhaps they only read spanish, or were going to go there first and then only later read the cautionary tale? Yep, a sign would be interesting. Take care all!

My son was just telling me last night that they had paper denominated in 1 trillion Zim dollars (pretty sure that's what he said). He rarely bullshits me so I looked it up. Bamm, kid was right. WOW! Prices doubling daily.....those poor people, how the hell can ya live? Opps, edited - I posted a link from a professor linked to the Cato institute. Time for every ignorant "oppressive" with no facts or argument to just totally ignore the data and attack the poster. Here we go - 3....2.....1........

Might me more stable, eh? Well, I was thinking we could pay it off for the Greeks with pocket change Jim. Zimbabwe had a 79,600,000,000% inflation rate one month. They chased out whitey and forgot to factor in stupidity in the gov't. The US can't print money that fast, although we are trying.

1.5 billion....can we get that denominated in Zimbabwe dollars instead of Drachmas or Euros? Although the US has been running the printing presses for an extra shift (now there's some hard working gov't workers right there), we haven't caught up with Zim yet. Trying to. Hyperinflation index for Zimbabwe

And Washington mooved up to 40th! Woot! "Analysis Washington was among the states that improved the most in overall freedom and consequently moved up five spots in the rankings. Unfortunately for denizens of that state, it had—and still has—a long way to go. Washington is still among the 10 least-free states. Indeed, it only barely cracks the top half of states in personal freedom. Spending is a bit higher than average, but taxes are slightly lower—a recipe for gov- ernment debt, which Washington has in abundance. Government employment is also too high. Land-use planning is fairly centralized. Eminent-domain legislation has been enacted but reforms need to go further. Labor and health-insurance laws are poor. Washington has the highest minimum wage in the country. It also has adjusted community rating and has enacted a host of new health-insurance coverage mandates. The state liability system is a bit above average. For a liberal state, gun laws remain quite reasonable. Alcohol is tightly controlled, with taxes on spirits the highest in the country by far (effectively $22.33 per gallon!). However, beer and wine taxes are considerably lower than average. Cigarette taxes are high overall and the highest in the West; smoking bans are extensive. Marijuana laws are a bit better than average, with a relatively humane (but still too high, at five years) maximum prison term for single offenses. Making high-level possession and low-level cultivation misdemeanors and low-level possession a civil offense would help further. Motorist freedoms are constrained and now include a ban on handheld cell phones. However, Washington does not authorize sobriety checkpoints. Gambling is restricted. Educational regulation is absurdly tight, with private schools needing state approval and under certain conditions, teacher licensing, and homeschoolers needing to meet teacher qualifications, annual standardized testing, and extensive recordkeeping rules, along with other requirements. Washington’s asset-forfeiture laws are among the worst in the country and require reform. However, the state performs quite well on victimless-crime arrests and drug-law enforcement. Policy Recommendations Reduce spending consistent with the state’s relatively decent tax-burden levels, starting with reducing government employment and spending on natural resources (mostly at the state government level) and sewerage (at the local government level), which is particularly far above national norms. Enact further-reaching eminent-domain reform. Reduce centralized land-use planning by repealing or amending the Growth Management Act and Shoreline Management Act."

Can't believe that you traded a #6 Camalot for it. That Camalot is hanging in my basement right now. I bought it for $60. Brand new, tag still on it.

You guys crack me up! The title should be Farside, it's the name of the crag.

Say something nasty and lets see what happens....:-) ...(stands back expectantly)......

Oregonians (and S. Washingtonians) probably just need to put on the gloves and go a few rounds more often. It's all this rain I suspect, only the banana slugs are really happy about it, and I have my doubts about them too. PEACE AND HARMONY LINK TO OLD THREAD Take care all! Thanks Jon and Off.

Coming in last: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/slaves_of_new_york_yO0DTfKbiTExNWFBYd3oeL "Slaves of New York State is dead last in liberties By CARL CAMPANILE Last Updated: 10:32 AM, June 14, 2011 New York's notoriously high taxes and public spending, combined with restrictive "nanny" policies, make it the "least free" state in the country, a new study has found. The Empire State ranked 50th in George Mason University's biannual "Freedom in the States" rankings. "New York has by far the highest taxes in the country," the study reads, citing steep levies on property, income and corporations compared to other states. The high taxes, in turn, fuel massive spending, according to the analysis by George Mason's Mercatus Center, a libertarian think tank. "Spending on public welfare, hospitals, electric power, transit, employee retirement . . . are well above national norms," concludes the report, which covers the 2007-through-2009 period. Ranking worst in the categories of economic freedom and fiscal policy, New York also landed near the bottom for the categories of personal freedom (48th) and regulatory policy (40th). The study cites New York's restrictive gun-control and anti-smoking laws and sky-high cigarette taxes and the Big Apple's ban on trans fats. The researchers also slam New York's "excessive" home-schooling regulations and its strictest-in-the-nation health-insurance rules. The authors rap New York for curbing the rights of individual property owners. "Eminent domain abuse," the report says, "is rampant and unchecked." On the plus side, the report praises New York for relaxing its marijuana laws. Co-author Jason Sorens said New York has the opportunity to improve its freedom rating, thanks to actions taken this year by Gov. Cuomo and the state Legislature. "Cuomo insisted on balancing the budget through spending cuts rather than tax increases. It will help New York's rating down the road," said Sorens, a political-science professor at the University of Buffalo. Sorens also said New York could move out of the cellar with across-the-board tax cuts and additional trims in spending and by reining in home-school regulations. And he said New York will score significant points if Albany passes a law to legalize gay marriage, which he considers an advancement of personal freedoms. "The most liberal state in the country can surely find the political will to legalize same-sex partnerships of some kind," he said. But for now, Sorens said, New York is a "nanny state" and "the least free state" Joining New York near the bottom of the list are Massachusetts, Hawaii, California, and New Jersey. The top five "freedom" states are New Hampshire, whose motto is fittingly "Live Free or Die," South Carolina, Indiana, Idaho and Missouri. Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/slaves_of_new_york_yO0DTfKbiTExNWFBYd3oeL#ixzz1PH7HpvaS"

Well, it's Greece so there's still plenty of rocks for people to complain with. From 2008. Still germaine. "Anarchy in Greece: Middle Class Riots in Athens by HELENA SMITH (THE OBSERVER) Anarchy in Greece: Middle Class Riots in Athens At night, as marauding mobs of Molotov-cocktail wielding youths have run through the city's ancient streets, I have closed the shutters of the windows to my home. My friends have done the same. Those of us who live here - who have seen how frayed the fabric of public order can become - now know, in no uncertain terms, that the orgy of violence that has gripped this beautiful land masks a deeper malaise. It is a sickness that starts not so much at the top but at the bottom of Greek society, in the ranks of its troubled youth. For many these are a lost generation, raised in an education system that is undeniably shambolic and hit by whopping levels of unemployment (70 per cent among the 18-25s) in a country where joblessness this month jumped to 7.4 per cent. If they can find work remuneration rarely rises above €700 (this is, after all, the self-styled €700 generation), never mind the number of qualifications it took to get the job. Often polyglot PhD holders will be serving tourists at tables in resorts. One in five Greeks lives beneath the poverty line. Exposed to the ills of Greek society as never before, they have also become increasingly frustrated witnesses of allegations of corruption implicating senior conservative government officials and a series of scandals that have so far cost four ministers their jobs. With these grievances in mind, young people (who would not normally see themselves as revolutionaries and are a far-cry from the 'extremists' Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis says are behind the disturbances) have begun stockpiling stones, rocks and crushed marble slabs from Salonika in the north to the resort islands of Corfu and Crete in the south. They have also started selling them on - at three stones a euro - to other protesters whose parents may live in Hollywood-style opulence, or indeed on the breadline, but who are bonded by a common desire to hurl them at that hated symbol of authority: the police. The ferocity of the riots has numbed Greeks. Yet I write this knowing that the protests are not going to end soon. Greece's children have been startled by their own success - and by reports of copycat attacks across Europe - and almost unanimously they believe they are on a winner. 'It's like a smouldering fire,' says Yiannis Yiatrakis who preferred to leave his study of abstract mathematics to take to the streets of Athens last week. 'The flames may die down but the coals will simmer. One little thing, and you'll see it will ignite again. Ours is a future without work, without hope. Our grievances are so big, so many. Only a very strong government can stop the rot.' So how did it come to this? How did a country more usually associated with sun-kissed beaches and the good life erupt into a spasm of destruction that has shaken it to the core? How could an entire generation - most of whom were not even born when I arrived here - go unnoticed and yet nurture such burning rage? And who is to blame? Greek society, the state, or a political system running on empty that no longer inspires confidence or trust? Like so many, I was forced to ask all these questions last week as I walked through scarred streets that in more ways than one have become their battlefield. My hope is that those in power, the crooked politicians, the corrupt judiciary, the scandal-ridden church, will ultimately tour the same routes. It began with one death, one bullet, fired in anger by a hot-headed policemen in the heart of Athens' edgy Exarchia district on last Saturday. At the time most Greeks - including those who are compelled financially to live with their parents into their late thirties - were sitting in front of their TV sets or were out at their local tavernas. No one thought they would wake up to a revolt in the streets. But the death of Alexandros Grigoropoulos, a tousled-haired teenager from the rich northern suburbs was the match that lit the inferno. If the killing had happened in any of the capital's wealthy satellite suburbs, the reaction might well have been more subdued. Exarchia, however, is Athens' answer to Harlem (without the racial component). It is here that anarchists, artists, addicts, radical leftists, students and their teachers rub shoulders in streets crammed with bars and cafes that are covered with the graffiti of dissent. It is Athens's hub of political ferment; a backdrop of tensions between anti-establishment groups and the police. Within an hour of the boy's death thousands of protesters had gathered in Exarchia's lawless central square screaming, 'cops, pigs, murderers,' and wanting revenge. At first, it is true, the assortment of self-styled anarchists who have long colonised Exarchia piggy-backed on the tragedy, seeing it as the perfect opportunity to live out their nihilistic goals of wreaking havoc. But then middle-class kids - children had got good degrees at universities in Britain but back in Greece were unable to find work in a system that thrives on graft, cronyism and nepotism - joined the protests and very quickly it became glaringly clear that this was their moment, too. Theirs was a frustration not only born of pent-up anger but outrage at the way ministers in the scandal-tainted conservative government have also enriched themselves in their five short years in power. Now the million-dollar question is whether protests that started so spontaneously can morph into a more organised movement of civil unrest. What is certain is that Karamanlis's handling of the disturbances will go down as a case study of what not to do in a crisis. Seemingly disoriented and removed, the government's popularity has dropped dramatically over the past week. Even diehard conservatives have called me to say they'll be jumping ship. So far, Karamanlis has roundly rejected demands that he call early elections which means Greece will be saddled with a lame-duck government (the New Democrats are anyway hampered by a razor-thin one-seat majority in the 200-member parliament) for several months yet. With daily demonstrations planned in the weeks ahead Greek youth are not going to give in easily. Far from calming spirits, the tear gas that has been used so liberally against them has only stoked their ire. A fragile democracy From the bitter civil war that raged between 1946 and 1949 to the 1967-74 military dictatorship, Greece's postwar history has been more tumultuous than most. The defeat of the communist EAM party with the help of British and US forces in 1949 led to decades of authoritarian right-wing rule. Thousands of leftwingers were imprisoned or sent to labour camps. The right-left divide was later reinforced on 21 April 1967 when in a coup a group of US-backed junior officers, known as the Colonels, seized power. In a spontaneous uprising on 17 November 1973, students at Athens Polytechnic rebelled against the regime, leading to the Colonels' fall in July 1974. The restoration of democracy under the late Konstantinos Karamanlis laid the foundations for a reconciliation between left and right under Andreas Papandreou, who introduced socialist government to Greece in 1981. ORIGINALLY PUBLISHED http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/14/greece-riots-youth-poverty-comment"

LOL, that would be nice, but a massive amount of work!

I missed it too. There is a list of people who look like they can step in and do the job, but they are not republican...you betya..... You can catch up with the gobment version here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/14696_republicannewhampshire2012presidentialdebategraded;_ylt=AtSjiiNP1DnOtiSNAP2wQR.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTUwdHFvNHI2BGFzc2V0A2RhaWx5YmVhc3QvMjAxMTA2MTQvMTQ2OTZfcmVwdWJsaWNhbm5ld2hhbXBzaGlyZTIwMTJwcmVzaWRlbnRpYWxkZWJhdGVncmFkZWQEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwMxBHBvcwMyBHB0A2hvbWVfY29rZQRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNhbmFseXNpc2F0bGE-

DENALI DAVE! LONG TIME BUDDY!!!! I wuz wondering where you went.

Ahhh, I was out of that loop. Now it's funny. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1526970&tn=0&mr=0

? wuhhh uhh?

I think that the slings are generally difficult to see from the upper trail unless you head down looking for them, and they are often critically needed as they are the rap points for climbers doing the routes so they should stay right where they are. Thanks for putting the heads up out there for the next group that might make this mistake. Furthermore, there are plenty of loose rocks on the hill to access the top of the cliff that could conceivably kill someone below if one goes. I think Tim pointed out in the book that the objective dangers were higher here, the skill level needs to be higher and to not come looking for easy climbs as the grades are deceptive...or something along those lines. Hopefully you were able to help them out.

Lone Wolf, the line Jim pointed out to Adam and I on the South side, got missed in the book. http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/915056/1 Hmmpf. "I V A N" ....seems easy enough to me. BTW, if anyone wants to order the new book, (includes Ozone, The Farside, Beacon Rock, French's Dome, Broughton, Rocky Butte, Carver, Madrone, etc). here's the link. http://www.portlandrockclimbs.com/ Of particular interest East coast Dave, if you haven't seen one of these is look at the masterpiece Beacon Topo. Lots of folks have bought 2 and framed them side by side front and back. As it's big, and colored somewhat, it is as much art as topo. Good stuff. Tim is planning a second book as well that will have a bunch of new areas in it.

http://mercatus.org/freedom-50-states-2011 Somewhat subjective.