billcoe

yes

Words of the framers of the Constitution, expressing their views on gun rights: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson, proposed Virginia constitution, June 1776. Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C. J. Boyd, Ed., 1950) "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." Thomas Jefferson, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764, pp 87-88. When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny, Thomas Jefferson "The Constitution of most of our states, and the United States, assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves: that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of the press." Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776 "Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: first, a right to life, secondly to liberty, thirdly to property; together with the right to defend them in the best manner they can." Samuel Adams "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." Samuel Adams, During the Massachusetts U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788 "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the governor, November 11, 1755 "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States." Noah Webster, An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (1787) in Pamphlets to the Constitution of the United States (P. Ford, 1888). "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at the individual discretion, in private self-defense." John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787-88 "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8 "A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves and include all men capable of bearing arms. To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." Richard Henry Lee, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights. Additional Letters From the Federal Farmer 53, 1788 "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined. The great object is that every man be armed. Every man who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry, During Virginia's ratification convention, 1788 "The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." James Madison, The Federalist No. 46 "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of people, trained in arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country." James Madison, I Annuals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789) "I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason, during Virginia's ratification convention, June 4, 1788 (From J. Elliott, Debates in the General State Conventions 425 (3rd ed. 1937). "Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived the use of them." ...Thomas Paine, Thoughts on Defensive War, 1775 "A free people ought to be armed. When firearms go, all goes, we need them by the hour. Firearms stand next to importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence." George Washington, Boston Independence Chronicle, January 14, 1790 "To ensure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good." George Washington

You folks seem to think that countries with strict gun laws have less crime. Not necessarily. IMO, these laws are about political control. If they can make you, or any other honest person, a criminal by passage of a law, then they got ya. "Russia, Mexico, South Africa and Brazil have very strict gun laws and much higher crime than we do. Switzerland has almost 100% handgun ownership. They even have shooting competitions for teenagers. Their murder rate is lower than England, where handgun ownership is banned. Violent crime in England has risen since the ban. If guns caused crime, Switzerland would be the most dangerous nation on earth, rather than one of the safest. Finland has higher per-capita gun ownership than America, and they also have lower crime rates. Israel has 40% higher gun ownership, and near zero murder, except for terrorists. New York, California, Chicago, and Washington DC have the strictest gun laws in America, and the highest crime rates. Virginia borders Washington DC, yet it has few gun laws and far fewer violent crimes. Vermont has the least restrictive gun laws in America, and their gun crime rate is 48th out of 50 states. Every state that started allowing average citizens to carry concealed weapons saw a decrease in violent crime over the ensuing years. Gun laws have been proven to make things worse, not better. (Prof. J. Lott, More Guns, Less Crime, 1998)"

On THE FRIGGAN MONEY Reilly! Spot on!

Yeah, nice call. Liked the video Bstach attached too once it hit over 1:50 and the extended intro segued into the song.

Any dregs left? I'll be over if it's yes!

Does a 1 hour long $6 full body massage by a comely Thai lass sans "happy finish", paired with a foot massage and extra oil count?

More than 170,000 men and women of our military will spend their Christmas and New Year's in Iraq and Afghanistan. My thoughts and prayers are with them. Happy holidays to you and yours as well!

Classic! _________________________________________________________________ Nothing to do with your post, but wanted to put this somewhere.

That sounds damn painful Rudy, probably not a consolation that at least the weather sucks so bad that it's a relatively good time to stay inside and heal. How did it happen? Jumping off the roof into the snow again?

You might not recognize the place Joseph. Just clip and go now, wall to wall folks. This shirt I picked up over there may explain some of the trip for me. At 54, 33 is so far in the rear view mirror that I can't even remember what that was like. Coupled with NO training and my natural dislike of crowds, clip climbing and climbing with strangers ....well, it was a good time, but I didn't get a lot of climbing in. Still, it was 80 degree warm and clear everyday, with warm sunny beaches and hotties in skimpy bathing suits for a view, then to come back to the Seattle airport, all flights canceled due to shit snow weather, I rented one of the last cars in the town and drove down to PDX past all the wrecks on I-5. The green roofed building is the restaurant next to the bar, pretty much where I ate breakfast every am on the deck right there. View from that deck. Here's an overview of the walls from the viewpoint further down the way. Typical climb, steep to overhanging with interesting stalagtite features.

True dat: my cousin is a dweebe Phd in Russian studies and still gets paid (by you, the taxpayer) to hunt geriatric Nazis. How old do you think the last few are? Wonder how long this will be going on? I keep waiting for someone to step up and say, "hey, lets put this money to better use, the war ended over 60 years ago". This happening next spring? Good luck to Eddy, it gets brutal at elevation, I think the Russians may have the studies and ideas that give the best chance at adapting to that elevation. ___________________________________________________________________ Ivan, too funny!

Hi all: I'm in Thailand right now. A quick note on the climbing in Thailand. First, note to self to remember that training in advance is not just de regior - but critical. I always seem to have this flat lull at the end of the year, so shaping up in Thailand at the back end of that lull makes a startling reminder that being old, fat and out of shape isn't something one wants as a starting point. Trashed at the end of 1 day. I met some great Aussies who invited me to go climbing yesterday and it trashed me so bad I'm taking a rest day to lay on the beach today! It turns out that grades have advanced while I haven't! When I was getting into climbing, (spoken in an old man voice wherein it was uphill to school both ways and 8 feet of snow to boot) 5.10 was the top of the scale, but a lot of 5.10s were still called 5.9 becasue folks didn't know what 5.10 was. I was feeling kind of guilty about the rest day today until the 2 germans whom the Aussies had tried to coach up a route yesterday afternoon, lets just call them Adonis and Abercrombie and Fitch dude because of the way they looked, walked by me laying on the beach on the way home early today before 10 am with their tails between their legs on the way to a rest day themselves. Getting in yesterday was a shock. It's like this is where all the Victoria Secret chicks go to relax or something. No kidding. 9s and 10s were about it. They all seemed to have Euro boyfriends who looked to be built like brick shithouse looking stud muffins though. I'd say the population is running 70 percent Euro, 20 percent Aussie and the rest North americans. And about 90 percent Victorias Secret models. In fact, while eating sticky rice yesterday I did in fact see a perfect ass in a thong - I mean perfect. (insert old guy leer here) Everything here is steep, overhanging, very physical and mostly hard. Pretty much everything I'm not. It doesn't fall to guile either, (one of the tricks I occasionally can pull out of my bag), because each hold is super chalked, only a blind man would be stumped where the routes go. This is left right left right 1,2,3 just follow the chalk trail. The Aussies saw me bouldering yesterday am and invited me to climb. They asked what I can get up and I say @ 5.10, which is generally true. The invite was awesome and greatly appreciated too as I really wanted some mileage. The first route went well and I cruised it, but being already pumped from the bouldering, in addition to being old and out of shape *cough *cough* well, I got even more pumped on it. They suggested I then do the route to the right of that one, which they said was easier. It went OK till the last clip and I hung like a whipped puppy my forearms were so pumped. Later, they tell me the names and I look them up in the guidebook. Route one was 10c, but the description for route 2 (whipped puppy might have been a good name), says " this is the easiest route on this wall". 6a which infact translates to 10.a. They decide that doing the route next to it was a good idea, and after they dog their way up it, offer me a toprope. It looks harder than both of the others combined and it was. Grateful, I make it less than half way up, totally trashed. The book listed it at 7A or 5.11D. So on Tonsai, it's 10A and up, lots of 5.11 and 12. Of course, I'm getting to hang out in a great spot, nice warm tropical water etc etc as well. No pics, I'll try to get some at some point. It's too warm to climb in the sun right now or even hang out on the beach mid-day, like 78-82 degrees in the shade. The routes I was on had this sticky amalgam of chalk and sweat that resembled dried bird guano and made the holds slippery. But this is some good shit here, even more so if you love gym climbing in an amazing setting. I've heard this before, "I'm climbing harder than I ever have, but I've noticed the route grades are significantly easier:-) " and it sure seems applicable.

I told dude the same thing only much more poorly. On that subject: Dude, you toss a few sheep, a midget, a tricycle and 3 rodeo clowns in that mix and you'll have a saga of Homeric proportions yourself! Keep that shit flowing! Good stuff:-)

Nice find!

Hot damn, now THATS a story!

It shocks me that these guys trust politicians more than they trust each other. Frankly, I trust the people I know to do the right thing much more than any politician, some of whom are great and honest people, but too many of whom are drawn to politics just for the power and the desire to control others. For me, that's the crux of the nut. Do you trust the people you know more than politicians? I do. Tvash doesn't. __________________________________________________________ Take care Bug, don't let them get ya down.

Here's something I don't understand. Maybe you can explain it to me. I'm reading the recent biography on Ben Franklin. Self made man and arguably one of the smartest guys in the colony's. In 1747 he got just a few of his peeps together and formed a militia in Pennsylvania. Yet there was already plenty of British Soldiers in the area. Why would he do that? Why would the framers insist that is a right any and all of us should have? The book only makes note of him doing it, not any reason behind it.

I specifically used the word Could. You are having reading comprehension issues again. If you want to roll over and let politicians pound sand up your un-lubricated ass, then you go right ahead, but keep me out of it.

The fact that you guys think you can be safe by restricting guns surprises me as I thought you were all smarter than that. Mexico restricted them in 1968, yet when you look at the Juarex/El Paso situation it is clear what can occur. Consider: On the side of the border where guns were restricted: heavily armed drug dealers are running crazy in the area, honest people who chose to have a weapon are criminals and the police and politicians are corrupt. Murders are rampant. While on the other side of the border, despite the fact that every damn Texan seems to have gun and they are available on every street corner including Sears and Wal Mart and despite that availability is a peaceful respite next to Juarez. I know that there are places where the reverse is true as well. However, for you to want to voluntarily give up one more check in the checks and balance of power equation both saddens and causes displeasure for me. It's not a good thing to change the way we've successfully integrated this over the last 236 years since the founding of the country. I'm joining the NRA today as one more small measure of that commitment. From wikipedia: "Crime [edit] Drug cartel violence Recent violence among rival drug cartels has resulted in more than a quarter of the country's 3,800 drugs-related murders reported to have taken place there since the start of the year; Juarez has one of the highest murder rates of cities in Mexico.[12] Recent murders in the city have grown not only in numbers, but also in barbarity. A man recently was found near a school hanging from a fence with a pig's mask on his face, and another one was found beheaded hanging from a bridge in one of the busier streets of the city.[13] Journalist Charles Bowden, in an August 2008 GQ article, wrote that multiple factors, including drug violence, government corruption, and poverty have unleashed a disordered violence that now permeates the city.[14] [15] In January 2004, police unearthed a grave containing 12 bodies in a Ciudad Juarez backyard.[16] Mexican investigators found 19 more bodies buried in the backyard of a house in Ciudad Juarez, increasing the tally of corpses found there to 36, officials said March 15, 2008. Federal agents began digging in the yard on March 1, 2008, initially finding six dismembered bodies. Ciudad Juárez has been plagued by violence as Mexico's crackdown on powerful drug cartels stokes turf wars among traffickers who have been linked to hundreds of killings in the years 2006 and 2007.[17] [edit] Female sexual homicides Main article: Female homicides in Ciudad Juárez Over the past 10 years Juárez has seen over 400 women fall victims to sexual homicides, their bodies often dumped in ditches or vacant lots. In addition, grassroots organizations in the region report that 40 remain missing. Despite pressure to catch the killers and a roundup of some suspects, few believe the true culprits have been found. A controversial 2007 book called The Daughters of Juarez, by Teresa Rodriguez.[18] implicates high-level police and prominent Juárez citizens in the crimes." This is in a country where purchasing any weapon is highly restrictive. You want that here? It could happen. Why change what has been working for 236 years?

Chastity belts are coming back eh?

I think Prole is feeling that he should have gone with the Maverick. and his wingman: That bear, a known environmentalist, seen here resting on those ever so soft and sensuous shoulders, would have been Sec. of Interior. Guess who would have gotten special rights then and been re-introduced to California?

[video:yahoo]10933377&src=news Teddys next, part of the feed the wildlife program. Something identical happened to a buddy who lives on Klamath lake. He (and a bunch of others) watched his neighbors family mutt hauled off by an Eagle while they were having an outdoor dinner party. They never saw the dog again, some toy breed.

Not at all Doug, in fact, if you applied enough pressure to the turd you might even create diarrhea. Please advise if you are going to try that though, as I want to be elsewhere when it happens.

Or old and crotchety like Pink.