RuMR

You're cleaning then baking your kids!!!??!??! WHOAH!!!

Matt...i think pope's been pretty level regarding insulting folks...he's reactionary, and isn't starting the fights... Although he's hijacked the thread into an anti bolting argument....which is now drifting into a chipping swamp...

jkassidy...you have conveniently ignored my position that chipping will never gain popularity because it makes lines EASIER and the trend is towards more difficult climbing... Again, bolting and chipping are unrelated...

i'm going to smith...sub 50 is best climbing conditions...precipitation is irrelevant...

Wazz everyone doin'??????

Scott's got those sub-25 eyeballs...they haven't gone bad yet...

it is unatractive, unnatural and it is a hole in the rock! i got into climbing as a teenager as an extension of backpacking that i have done since i was 5. I would have been pissed then to see a bolt in a rock. how self-centered to think that "we" the climbers of the rock are the only ones that have a say in how that rock is treated? But scott...everything you pointed out is an aesthetic issue...its not an environmental one in the sense that its altering the environment... Europe...its accepted to see bolts on crags...different aesthetic value... I'm not arguing with your aesthetic point of view...those are personal...just don't tell me its causing a true impact... nature is all about the aesthetics! why should we ruin someone elses perfectly natural view so that we can feel great that we have conquered a rock that without bolts we did not have the brass to climb? a perfect example is snow creek wall. i know of many old timers (the ones who got me started hiking as a wee lass) that pass SCW. They are supposed to just deal with this visual impact as a consequence of an incredibly small fraction of the populations actions? egocentric at best. manifest destiny in the verticle realm is more like it. I would call it "resource management" for the masses...face it, climbing is goiing the way skiing went in the early sixties and the way snowboarding went in the early 80's...its just becoming popular as an activity...Just like europe...

Ok...you've gone waaaay too hyperbolic on me...Yes, jkassidy or whatever reincarnation you want to call yourself...i would feel very satisfied taking an escalator to the top of Just Do It and would run home to spray on cc.com about my heroic ascent...

the hole is rock damage a good argument for keeping bolt counts low by placing gear wherever possible i would like to see someone argue now that a route with 6 bolts bolted drilling by hand on lead, is better than the same route put up on rappel - i haven't seen that argument regurgitated pro and con for a while! Well, it goes like this: Given that any pussy can drill on rappel, those 6 bolt holes get multiplied by the scores of jokers who think that bolting on rap creates a lead. Now instead, if we agree that "leads" must be established on lead, and that bolts must be drilled by hand, just how often are those six holes going to appear? Answer me this, oh clever boy! No reason to start using terms like "pussy"...there's a good number of "pussy" sportclimbers that would wipe the floor w/ you...I'm not one of them, so save the "are you threatening me" speech? I'm not...

I still maintain that a hole is NOT an environmental impact, period...

it is unatractive, unnatural and it is a hole in the rock! i got into climbing as a teenager as an extension of backpacking that i have done since i was 5. I would have been pissed then to see a bolt in a rock. how self-centered to think that "we" the climbers of the rock are the only ones that have a say in how that rock is treated? But scott...everything you pointed out is an aesthetic issue...its not an environmental one in the sense that its altering the environment... Europe...its accepted to see bolts on crags...different aesthetic value... I'm not arguing with your aesthetic point of view...those are personal...just don't tell me its causing a true impact...

So, the clean climbing revolution had NOTHING to do with a change in the way climbers approached wilderness and the preservation thereof? You're telling me that nuts caught on ONLY BECAUSE THEY ARE EASY TO USE AND MADE CLIMBS EASIER FOR JOE AVERAGE? "If it's practical, I'll do it. If it helps me get up the cliff, shoot.....IT'S ALL GOOD!" May I summarize your approach to climbing ethics in the previous pseudo-quote? Is this what really motivates you? Just so long as it makes the climb easy, anything goes? Because, my friend, when you begin to allow for permanent alterations to the rock (bolts) in order to facilitate an easier ascent, and when you're Hell-bent on affirming the latest fad for fear of being accused of living in the past, YOU MAY HAVE DIFFICULTY TELLING THE NEXT GENERATION OF CLIMBERS (WHO WISH TO MAKE THINGS EVEN EASIER BY, SAY, CHIPPING A LINE OF BUCKETS) THAT WE SHOULD RESPECT THE NATURAL LIMITATIONS OF THE CLIFF INSTEAD OF MURDERING THE IMPOSSIBLE. Bolts and chipping? U-N-R-E-L-A-T-E-D! Its a far stretch to say that bolts lead to chipping...a very far stretch... Murdering the impossible?? You can't even climb 90% of limestone w/o fixed gear CUZ THERE AINT EVEN A PLACE FOR A THREAD, much less some piece of gear... Elbsandstein, one of the boldest traditional areas around relies on fixed gear...there are rules about placing them, but they are there nonetheless... I don't think bolting leads to chipping. I think that they are ethically commensurate. If you can justify one, then you can justify the other. (And I predict, if guys like Offwhite are still around in 10 years, he'll be composing the pro-chip essays. I mean, let's make sure we're looking forward, gentlemen!) the only flaw in your argument is that chipping makes routes easier. The current marketing slick ad promotion game doesn't really want easier....they want HARDER lines to promote on their flashy mags...so the trend will always be towards more difficulty, not less...your argument about being able to swallow bolting will allow chipping to be kosher is nil... For years, the top sport climbers would absolutely come unhinged if a route got chipped easier...and they still do...

the hole is rock damage a good argument for keeping bolt counts low by placing gear wherever possible i would like to see someone argue now that a route with 6 bolts bolted drilling by hand on lead, is better than the same route put up on rappel - i haven't seen that argument regurgitated pro and con for a while! Yeah...that 3/8 + 1/16 hole...catastrophic damage, yup...earthending annihilation...

Please scott...tell me what the impact of a 3/8 inch stud is on a monolithic chunk of granite...This will be "enlightening"...

additionally, bolting does not cause an environmental impact...period...its inert steel... Now traffic is another issue...yes, there is risk to flora and fauna and trampling etc. BUT, with an increase in #'s of climbers, if routes are not available to them, you will find that easily protected traditional routes will be damn near overrun from overuse...AND then you'll be waitin' in line, for real... you want to keep it scary enough to limit the numbers of climbers entering the sport? Well, that's certainly a valid tactic...but i don't think that'll work either in the long run...

jkassidy...can you point me to where i said you were dwayner?? Never said that...i still maintain that you are pope...deny it, if i'm wrong, but your arguing is closer to pope than dwayner...sorry, that is what i think... and i'm hardly a zombie...i think overbolting is stupid and runs the risks of getting precious climbing areas closed...but bolting as wrong just on prinicple? HA! That's a joke...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

So, the clean climbing revolution had NOTHING to do with a change in the way climbers approached wilderness and the preservation thereof? You're telling me that nuts caught on ONLY BECAUSE THEY ARE EASY TO USE AND MADE CLIMBS EASIER FOR JOE AVERAGE? "If it's practical, I'll do it. If it helps me get up the cliff, shoot.....IT'S ALL GOOD!" May I summarize your approach to climbing ethics in the previous pseudo-quote? Is this what really motivates you? Just so long as it makes the climb easy, anything goes? Because, my friend, when you begin to allow for permanent alterations to the rock (bolts) in order to facilitate an easier ascent, and when you're Hell-bent on affirming the latest fad for fear of being accused of living in the past, YOU MAY HAVE DIFFICULTY TELLING THE NEXT GENERATION OF CLIMBERS (WHO WISH TO MAKE THINGS EVEN EASIER BY, SAY, CHIPPING A LINE OF BUCKETS) THAT WE SHOULD RESPECT THE NATURAL LIMITATIONS OF THE CLIFF INSTEAD OF MURDERING THE IMPOSSIBLE. Bolts and chipping? U-N-R-E-L-A-T-E-D! Its a far stretch to say that bolts lead to chipping...a very far stretch... Murdering the impossible?? You can't even climb 90% of limestone w/o fixed gear CUZ THERE AINT EVEN A PLACE FOR A THREAD, much less some piece of gear... Elbsandstein, one of the boldest traditional areas around relies on fixed gear...there are rules about placing them, but they are there nonetheless...

Regarding my identity... Please PUSH ME I still think its wrong if you don't post your identiy...anything you say is completely meaningless w/o a "real" person behind it...

Plus they were chilled...that makes it too easy...

Back when I was young people who made such statements about the cowardice of others were not afraid to use their real names while doing so. Golden Age indeed. If it weren't for the juvenile language and obscene images of perverted toads one encounters on this site, I could probably post from my workplace using my real name and not feel embarassed about it. So then, how do you feel about incessant Richard Simmons postings, and Sport climbers are gay posting. This is very offensive in a two-fold manner: 1.) you are insinuating that something is wrong w/ being a homosexual, and 2.) you are then using that little "factoid" to then slam sportclimbing You are a hypocrite if you are who i think you are. Your previous postings point to the fact that you can get right down to the level of JayB and others...So don't play that weak card... You are insinuating that I am Dwayner? I am not. Dwayner has not posted here since he was arbitrarily banned. I know this for a fact. I challenge you to find one statement (made by Dwayner) that sport climbers are gay. I don't think you'll find it. No...i'm insinuating that you are Pope...

Not everybody was bold, but many more people (compared to today) respected the idea that you deal with the cards you're dealt. If the wall doesn't have sufficient pro for your likings, you walk away and don't leave a mess. I have equal respect for the 5.5 limber and the 5.12 climber, whether or not they choose to do bold lines, and whether or not they get in over their heads now and then. I RESPECT CLIMBERS WHO ATTEMPT TO CLIMB IN GOOD STYLE AT WHATEVER LEVEL, WITHOUT LEAVING A MESS. Now that is fair statement...I guess we disagree on the "leaving a mess" portion though...you won't convince me of the errors of bolting at certain areas and leaving others as traditional...Going to France changed my mind on this...it also redefined what I considered "bold"...there are many many bolted "sport climbs" that are quite "engaging" over there and these lines will demand your respect... I still think its chickenpoop to post as an anonymous person...i'll say what i'm posting to anyones face...

Damn freakin' hook stuck in my lip!!! SHoot...

Back when I was young people who made such statements about the cowardice of others were not afraid to use their real names while doing so. Golden Age indeed. If it weren't for the juvenile language and obscene images of perverted toads one encounters on this site, I could probably post from my workplace using my real name and not feel embarassed about it. So then, how do you feel about incessant Richard Simmons postings, and Sport climbers are gay posting. This is very offensive in a two-fold manner: 1.) you are insinuating that something is wrong w/ being a homosexual, and 2.) you are then using that little "factoid" to then slam sportclimbing You are a hypocrite if you are who i think you are. Your previous postings point to the fact that you can get right down to the level of JayB and others...So don't play that weak card...

Hey...i've managed to hold off on this thread for a WHOLE day...but when he starts that crap about how bold the old were, he's full of it...yeah, there were a few of them, just like there are a few of them now... I started around the same time as he did...and there were just a few really bold climbers then as now...so he's pissing up a pole as far as that whole "back in the day...crap"...