Off_White

Wayne, did you guys bring the pins mentioned in prior ascents?

So it sounds like it's a great lonely wilderness traverse, but one should leave most of the gear behind, eh? I've looked at that route on a map, and at pictures of the peaks in the Green book, I'd have guessed there might be a few possible interesting lines too, but you and Blake suggest that's not really the case. Got any more details or photos of your descent, that sounds like the crux of the biscuit?

Damn that's a gripping report, glad you made it down. Some climbs you're just glad when they're over (and usually one vows to try to avoid that sort of thing in the future. I wonder if you were off route? A few years back we had a party of three share that sweet bivy ledge just above the NE Ridge notch. In the morning they went down to the notch and around to the N Face, we dawdled and went up the NE Ridge for a fun outing. They caught up to us on the descent just about back at the bivy, a super fast and competent crew. They reported the approach was fine, and the route to be mediocre but not bad, I think they did the two followers at once through the 5.10 lower and then two simuled and the third soloed the rest. They may have mentioned sparse pro, and I'm pretty sure they didn't bring pins. I'm beginning to suspect they may have severely understated the magnitude of their day. Someone who posts here, Dan Aylward maybe, knew those folks. There's two lower variations, aren't there? The original line and a Burdo line?

I had a great time talking about that Pemi West gig and the Olympics in general with Doug at the Ski-In this year. He made the case that the Olympics offer one of the best general wilderness experiences you can find in the lower 48, and your great TR confirms it. Thanks for the pics and story.

Great TR and photos. I've never met Silas, but I've admired his activities all over the Cascades for a long time. Good on ya for getting him back out to such a wild place.

whatsup? he's an eager 16 year old kid, right? kinda cold, methinks. Oh, he's a 15 year old kid with a bit of a disability, more of a compliment to him to suggest that mid fifties Joseph is on the same cognitive level. Seriously Kimmo, if someone asserts that climbing a ladder is no different than climbing a 5.13 sport route, do you think there is a cognitive ability worth engaging present? I know you're one of the more zen and accepting individuals who has ever posted on this board, so maybe I only show my own limitations by declaring some perceptual threshold as a minimum for discussion, but there you have it. Just like Popeye, I yam what I yam. (my forearms are smaller than his though, mores the pity)

Kimmo, I don't think that kind of climbing is dead, its just not spewed about on the internet. There's a lot of wild adventure climbing first ascents out there in the world still, its just not in the old familiar places. Hell, look at John Frieh's FA on Burkett Needle, does 5.7 get any more out there than that? Even in the cragging world, I bet there are still lots of places to go to have an unscripted adventure on whatever you want, and you don't even have to go far afield, I wager you can find it in the Castle Crags of Northern California or Hells Canyon on the Idaho/Oregon border. Eastern Washington is full of secrets so closely held they might as well be new discoveries for whoever finds them. The issue is not that that sort of climbing is dead, its that an individual's willingness to toss all to the winds and pursue it has passed.

Wednesdays? I never have time to spare on Wednesdays, that's the happening day I'm pretty much guaranteed to have partners at the 2 minute foot commute! In fact, this route, Shaking Hands With The Govenor (5.10b) is a classic example of the difference between toproping and leading. Ya'll are invited to come on down and check it out. (thanks K, this thread really needed a picture)

I don't know about you Resnarklican slackers, but I bought two new cars last week thanks to the Cash For Clunkers program. What have you done for me lately?

Well, back in bumfuck there some TR routes that command enough respect that folks have tried various means of pre-placing pro in them to lead them so they wouldn't have to step up to the TR. Pfft, there are always exceptions to the rule, and big roofs are an example. Come to Tenino and you'll eat your words.

Hey Dawg, I just had an idea. Have you ever climbed at exit 38? Isn't that considered the most execrable example of sport climbing in Washington? I've never climbed there myself, and have only been to Little Si maybe twice. What do you say you and I make a trip to check out the devil's sidewalk and post our separate trip reports? We might have really different experiences, but I'll be it will be entertaining both for us and anyone reading here!

Joe, the K Man doesn't lump into anyone's definition of "sport climbers." He's an old school alpinist whose adventures you'd be 100% behind, so you can't dismiss him as being the same as a climbing slut like myself who will take whatever comes. If you think climbing 5.13 is the same as climbing a ladder, you're a total loon and no more worth talking to than Josh Lewis. In fact, I think you should take Josh out and show him the ropes, it can't be any worse than what he's up to on his own.

Raindawg, you've brought up top roping before as a valid way to experience climbing over a face that does not present natural protection, and I think that's a really interesting subject. Top roping has never been given any creedence in the climbing world, and I agree that the difference between top roping something and relentlessly wiring something so you can red point it is pretty negligible. Maybe Dick Cilley will chime in here, he's been denigrated by others as "the worlds best top roper" and has certainly experienced as much disdain the climbing community will dump on someone for top roping as anyone I personally know. I agree that top rope routes should merit recognition and respect, and in the one pitch cragging world they make a lot of sense. I clip them, but I'll freely admit that bolts are not lovely (unless you're 30' out). Respect for top rope ascents would be a really positive thing for the sport in general, I wish I knew how to make that happen. I like you Dawg, it's nice to have something to agree upon. That said, even with reasonable bolt protection, I find that I climb with more focus when I'm on the lead than when I'm top roping. Okay, so I'm only going 20', even that is enough to sharpen absolutely every aspect of human perception. I've got some 5.10 bolt protected climbs on my private crag that are totally different experiences on top rope than they are on lead, and plenty of 5.11's that play out the same way. Lisa is psyching up to make the 5th redpoint of Legends (5.12c) and I absolutely feel the drama of that, even though its a route I'll never be good enough to climb. The feeling of having the rope run up from you is really different than when the rope runs down, and anyone who says different is not paying attention.

Joe, you're dissembling and obfuscating. There is no equivalency between via ferrata and bolt protected face climbing, and chalk or guidebooks have nothing to do with it. I think we both climb because of the way it makes us feel, I doubt there's nearly as much difference as you suggest.

douchebags are a dime a dozen, we've more than a few of our own here.

Are you that thick? Sport climbers are not interested in making it easy, they're just making it possible. If they wanted it easy they'd make a via ferrata, instead they install protection for some of the hardest physical rock gymnastics ever accomplished. Go climb a via ferrata and a 5.13 sport climb and then swear that they are the same thing. I'll call you a liar, but then at least you'll have some feeble ground to claim equivalency. I'll believe bolt protected face climbing and via ferrata are equivalent when any obese american can climb 5.13.

Really, this is an open question to Joseph, Raindawg, or Pope: where and when have sport climbers deprived you of the essential first ascent experience you crave, stolen from you the singular moment of discovery and uncertainty that a first ascent offers? Repeating a route, whether bolted on rappel or established ground up, is all the same experience: the route is rated, the protection is known, and the line is established. After the first ascent, all routes are the same. In an intrinsic absolute sense, the Bacher-Yerian = R&D. It's a known quantity that anyone who chooses to climb the route knows what they're in for. All this pissing and moaning is over the direct experience of two people.

Joe, Via Ferrata paranoia is ridiculous, proliferation is not even much of an issue in Europe, much less in this country. There is no equivalency between bolt protected face climbing and via ferrata. Set up your straw men all you want, but it's a pathetic exercise obvious to all.

at least the good parts! I'm guessing you mean the lowest skirts of the majestic peak, as in Icicle Creek?

Joe, I know your upbringing in Bumfuck, SoIll led you to conclude that bolts were not traditional, but I suggest you tell John Salathe's descendants that he was a worthless sport climber since he placed bolts on the Lost Arrow well before our time. You and I started climbing at roughly the same time, and bolts were always a factor in west coast climbing, the only issue with sport climbing was the method of installation not the use of bolts themselves. If you could stand (or hang there on a hook, as was the case on Bacher-Yerian) there on the route, a bolt was considered absolutely valid. The only question is about the experience of the first ascent party; after that it's all a question of how the following hordes deal with the runouts dictated by the FA's placements. It's all just a rubric between the rock, skill, ego, and conformity. Runout 5.10 bolt protected face climbs put up by 5.12 climbers is just wankery, pure and simple.m It wasn't bolts that killed the horse, it was the people involved in the posturing. The horse being dead means that the peculiar lost backwater staked out by you and Raindawg's opposition to bolts as protection is the equivalent of the human appendix. Most folks involved in climbing of any sort recognize the ethical superiority of the onsite ground up first ascent, but from a practical viewpoint, this has little to do with the quality or popularity of the line climbed.

I've done an annual climbers reunion with a crew of folks loosely based on Tucson AZ climbers in the mid eighties. My (now) wife's attendance of library school at the U of A led me to meet these absolutely wonderful people. They met at Indian Creek in the fall for a few years, I joined in for three years at City of Rocks, we went to Red Rocks last year, and we're actively discussing where to go this October. I'm pulling for Hell's Canyon, but the location is secondary to getting together with well loved friends where we can all get up something or other. It should be noted that climbing at mid to high 5.10 puts me squarely in the lower third of these mostly 50 and up climbers; even the off the couch crowd has impressive skills in the old kit bag. I gotta say that recurring events with old friends are blissfully wonderful and take some of the sting out of the sort of thing Bill Coe complained about in his "getting old sucks" thread. New friends are beautiful and lovely, but old friends have a resonance and luster that only time can burnish.

Bill Shatner is a registered member of CC.Com, so best ya'll should be polite. I'm just saying...

PS: horse died in 1982

A smart feller might have figured out the first time his avatar pic got changed to Bozo the Clown that maybe a little animated finger on the panties gif is a wee bit too racy for some cubicle bound at work web surfers, and a NSFW notice can't follow you to every thread you post on. Richard Simmons is stage 2.

See if you can get in touch with Bryan Burdo, I bet he's got the beta.