Off_White

Most of the people that I know who died in the mountains, did it while climbing. Most of the people that I know who died climbing, did it in the mountains. I've had one friend die in a car and six of them climbing. None have died skiing. Maybe the moral of the story is don't be friends with skiers.

According to the Investors Business Daily, in an editorial about how horrible overhauling healthcare would be, asserted "People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless." Never mind that Stephen Hawking is in fact a life long UK citizen currently residing in Cambridge.

We'd found new slings tied around the waist of the peanut shaped boulder and evidence the last party had rapped straight down over the edge. It looked like a stupid idea, I easily imagined pulling the whole boulder over the edge on top of me, what with the sloping rock and ball bearing grit base. As we had reset each and every rap anchor (all the same color slings with initials) on the way down from bad crap to solid locations, we untied their sling and relocated it to the contact point, rapping skier's left off the step using a lower angled area where you could keep some weight on your feet. If it's really the same spot, I'm sort of shocked that boulder is still there twenty some years on.

We got a lot of rain overnight, and it persisted into the morning. The wall doesn't look bad, but holds feel slightly damp and I thing the sandstone will be a little tender and prone to breakage. I'd really like to climb, but prudence dictates that its not in the cards for tonight. Sorry everyone.

That's quite the tale Mark, I'm glad you're telling it yourself. When you get around to posting pictures I'd be very interested in seeing what you have of the descent and where the accident happened. I'm trying to square it with my memories of a late September rappel descent of the Sherpa which included rapping over what I think is the same rock step with a sling tied around one of the two contact points of a big boulder on the lip of the rock step. I recalled that as the last rappel we did, with nothing but walking after. It was quite awhile ago. Hope you have a smooth recovery, that's a pretty chilling account.

Yes, you're probably right about that route. Inappropriate bolting next to cracks and ridiculously close bolt spacing does happen, and I'm not a supporter of that sort of thing. I just wanted to make the point that pictures don't tell the whole story. Even with the bolt there, I'd thump on that flake before I yarded on it. Thanks Bill for providing a concrete example, that's just the sort of thing I had in mind.

Yes, the idea that Luck trumps Skill and Experience is unsettling. All those stories we tell ourselves about control and judgment feel a little hollow at this moment.

Thanks for the heads up Blake.

My point was that the rush to judgment from your desk chair based solely on one photo and no experience with the route is a bunch of reactionary hot air, and I'd love to hear from someone with actual knowledge. Its not a defense, its a series of questions to point out that all the information needed to form a reasoned opinion is not contained in a single image. What does it sound like when you thump on that flake? Sure, if it's that hollow it would be pretty darn poor judgment to yard on it like that fellow, but we can't really tell from our respective keyboards, can we? There's bolt protection on Wheat Thin, it's a flake all the way, why did that punk ass creep Bridwell do that? Well, chances are you have a lot more information about Wheat Thin than you do about that thing in the picture, so we both have a more informed answer to that question. In the same vein, you just know from one photo that the person in the picture is some little creep. What, because he's using some bolts that someone else put in? Can you tell someone is a creep based on your fashion bias? When you sit fuming at the keyboard, do you imagine yourself as Clint Eastwood in Grand Torino? I'm sure it's just me, but that's the voice I hear in my head when I read your post. You're right though about the bolt at his navel as he's gearing up to clip a next piece. It appears pretty silly, but I have very limited information about the route in question. The hat however is Poofterelle, a yarn hand spun from academic navel lint by starving interns in a grade-slavery scandal you'll read all about in the next National Geographic. Oh yeah, insert the "whoa there Kreskin" reply about what the hell you know about how I think, how dare you put your response in my mouth. The gap between what you think you know and what you actually know is far wider than you think.

You know in those sort of instructions where they tell you to test in a small inconspicuous area? That's a good idea. Helluva first post

That is a quality response. If you could keep the hanger cost down to around $5 I bet it would sell too!

Oh hell yeah, we'd love to host a version of those TR's.

Wow Jay, that's quite a story, nicely written. Thanks a bunch, and if you unearth your pictures of that trip I'd love to see them.

I was actually referring to the link in the original post about it, but I'd agree Checat is not a dick about it either. I think pressure towards more consideration in bolt placement and questioning whether a route is worth it is a good thing, it's just a drag when someone has to start off making fun of someone and being a pompous ass. I don't buy into bolt phobia, but we've all seen some egregious examples of overbolted routes and sandwiched lines that don't merit the metal. Reflection, cooperation, and consideration all make for a better climbing area. I'd say the removable bolts seem unworkable in many situations, but cI ould imagine an area where they'd be the norm: fairly short lines that are tightly bolted. Route finding is not always complex, and any sport route that is carefully put up makes use of logical clipping stances. The notion that they may be worthwhile in a corrosive sea cliff environment is not bad either.

LCK, don't be answering Rudy's trolling efforts, it only encourages him.

Nothin wrong with that. Right guys? Dunno, haven't done the route. How dodgy is that block that forms the right hand side of the crack? I mean, that Smith mud is solid and all, but the photo doesn't provide enough information to answer your question Bug. Anyone who has done the route have an opinion?

2nd pitch of Central Pillar of Frenzy, it's a wee bit hot for me in the Valley right now, though the afternoon shade on that wall is a beautiful thing.

Here's your #8 Chouinard hex in action. (I thought we were ready for another picture)

BZZZZT! And the board goes back...

Heathen! Pinky rules! What other piece has its own fan site? Pinky

It's funny what a glitch will do, but after going back to Spray after my last post the way-back bug filled my list with vintage threads. This one from eight years ago is quite relevant and entertaining: Bolt Mania. To give some historical perspective, you'll come to understand that the "anonymous" who started the thread was Donna Top Step, one of Raindawg's old avatars. Cute that he lays claim to a female perspective. Way back then folks were complaining that the tone of the conversation starter inspires dissent from people who might otherwise agree but are offended by the attitude of the poster. Same now as it ever was.

Don, maybe you're looking for a blow by blow response Even if its radically overhung, this looks pretty uncool to me, looks like some decent cam placements. While out of the question for me, out in the world of hard climbers, 12c just isn't that hard anymore. Presumably this represents about eight face routes? Looks like most have 3 to 4 bolts on the pitch? There's a lot of lines squeezed in close, but the spacing on any individual route doesn't look any closer than one would sew up one of those cracks. The funny thing about a short route is that you never really get out of ground fall range. Aside from the red circles, the ugliest thing in that photo is the chalk. I can see as how you'd advocate that all these could be top roped, and that's certainly true. I don't really accept the idea that top roping is the same as leading bolt protected routes, based on my personal experience, but I'll concede all these routes could be top roped. Yeah, I remember this photo, where is this again? It looks pretty silly and that feature appears pretty short. Looks like a fine candidate for a TR or boulder problem. You tend to make fun of the pad people, but they climb things that high unroped all the time, so you might want to reconsider your disdain. Whoa, hold on there Kreskin, what gives you any insight into what "they" are thinking? I guess since it's a strawman you built yourself you can claim to know what "they" think, but for a guy who always disputes anyone who believes they can discern your thoughts and motives, you're awfully quick to hold forth on your imagined thoughts and motives of others. Do you consider that valid since you are an actual individual, whereas "them environmentalist-sport climbers" is just some silly pigeonhole you've created? Ah yes, the classic BLT photo. Lets consider it, shall we? First, it looks like 3 different routes. Is your issue the sandwiching (heh heh, BLT, sandwich, get it?) of these lines close together? I can understand that complaint. Without climbing all three lines and really looking at the area I can't hold forth on the merit of the routes, which is most worthy, which is a dull johnny come lately sandwich route, but I'll concede that's a possibility. Is your issue the frequency of protection? Well, that center line seems rather closely bolted, but the others seem reasonable if you don't want to hit the deck. Granted, they're a little better protected than some of the things I tend to put up in Tenino, but I can easily imagine placing gear that closely on a crack route, especially when close to the ground. Would you advocate removing the first bolts and using a stick clip? Certainly a viable though often sneered upon tactic. You could use a bouldering pad at the base and skip the first bolt. Do people routinely bring pads and/or stick clips to this crag? Either of those options only make sense if its the prevailing ethic at that crag. Option C, using riff-raff bolts, especially if installed by first ascensionists climbing well below their limit, are a fine example of ego driven wankery, but that's just my opinion. Frankly, it looks like a choss pile or a road cut, is this exhibit A in your body of evidence of degradation of the sacred rock by sport climbers? Sorry, I don't think the drama really bears up under scrutiny.

Crusing For A Care Bear, now that's a helluva name for a new route!

How about just a hand held tape recorder with that sound? With no experience or desire, I am definitely not a good candidate for gun ownership. I've got the dog though. Uh, he sounds much bigger in the dark. A good relationship with my various neighbors, all of whom are heavily armed, isn't a bad thing either.

I think that guy's claims have some glaring holes, but at least he's polite about it. His position is pretty congruent with Raindawg's rants, but he expressly doesn't engage in the "that's not real climbing" BS that raises everyone's hackles when the Dawg & Pope show do it here. The only problem with those removable bolts is finding the hole could be pretty difficult unless you spray painted a big red ring around the hole. It's hard enough to spot a stainless hanger far away on granite, my recent trip to the Valley actually had me missing the dark rusting beacons of old leeper hangers on the Apron. I think a crew should outfit those bolts with helium balloon markers every couple days so one can know just where one is casting off to.