Off_White

That is a quality response. If you could keep the hanger cost down to around $5 I bet it would sell too!

Oh hell yeah, we'd love to host a version of those TR's.

Wow Jay, that's quite a story, nicely written. Thanks a bunch, and if you unearth your pictures of that trip I'd love to see them.

I was actually referring to the link in the original post about it, but I'd agree Checat is not a dick about it either. I think pressure towards more consideration in bolt placement and questioning whether a route is worth it is a good thing, it's just a drag when someone has to start off making fun of someone and being a pompous ass. I don't buy into bolt phobia, but we've all seen some egregious examples of overbolted routes and sandwiched lines that don't merit the metal. Reflection, cooperation, and consideration all make for a better climbing area. I'd say the removable bolts seem unworkable in many situations, but cI ould imagine an area where they'd be the norm: fairly short lines that are tightly bolted. Route finding is not always complex, and any sport route that is carefully put up makes use of logical clipping stances. The notion that they may be worthwhile in a corrosive sea cliff environment is not bad either.

LCK, don't be answering Rudy's trolling efforts, it only encourages him.

Nothin wrong with that. Right guys? Dunno, haven't done the route. How dodgy is that block that forms the right hand side of the crack? I mean, that Smith mud is solid and all, but the photo doesn't provide enough information to answer your question Bug. Anyone who has done the route have an opinion?

2nd pitch of Central Pillar of Frenzy, it's a wee bit hot for me in the Valley right now, though the afternoon shade on that wall is a beautiful thing.

Here's your #8 Chouinard hex in action. (I thought we were ready for another picture)

BZZZZT! And the board goes back...

Heathen! Pinky rules! What other piece has its own fan site? Pinky

It's funny what a glitch will do, but after going back to Spray after my last post the way-back bug filled my list with vintage threads. This one from eight years ago is quite relevant and entertaining: Bolt Mania. To give some historical perspective, you'll come to understand that the "anonymous" who started the thread was Donna Top Step, one of Raindawg's old avatars. Cute that he lays claim to a female perspective. Way back then folks were complaining that the tone of the conversation starter inspires dissent from people who might otherwise agree but are offended by the attitude of the poster. Same now as it ever was.

Don, maybe you're looking for a blow by blow response Even if its radically overhung, this looks pretty uncool to me, looks like some decent cam placements. While out of the question for me, out in the world of hard climbers, 12c just isn't that hard anymore. Presumably this represents about eight face routes? Looks like most have 3 to 4 bolts on the pitch? There's a lot of lines squeezed in close, but the spacing on any individual route doesn't look any closer than one would sew up one of those cracks. The funny thing about a short route is that you never really get out of ground fall range. Aside from the red circles, the ugliest thing in that photo is the chalk. I can see as how you'd advocate that all these could be top roped, and that's certainly true. I don't really accept the idea that top roping is the same as leading bolt protected routes, based on my personal experience, but I'll concede all these routes could be top roped. Yeah, I remember this photo, where is this again? It looks pretty silly and that feature appears pretty short. Looks like a fine candidate for a TR or boulder problem. You tend to make fun of the pad people, but they climb things that high unroped all the time, so you might want to reconsider your disdain. Whoa, hold on there Kreskin, what gives you any insight into what "they" are thinking? I guess since it's a strawman you built yourself you can claim to know what "they" think, but for a guy who always disputes anyone who believes they can discern your thoughts and motives, you're awfully quick to hold forth on your imagined thoughts and motives of others. Do you consider that valid since you are an actual individual, whereas "them environmentalist-sport climbers" is just some silly pigeonhole you've created? Ah yes, the classic BLT photo. Lets consider it, shall we? First, it looks like 3 different routes. Is your issue the sandwiching (heh heh, BLT, sandwich, get it?) of these lines close together? I can understand that complaint. Without climbing all three lines and really looking at the area I can't hold forth on the merit of the routes, which is most worthy, which is a dull johnny come lately sandwich route, but I'll concede that's a possibility. Is your issue the frequency of protection? Well, that center line seems rather closely bolted, but the others seem reasonable if you don't want to hit the deck. Granted, they're a little better protected than some of the things I tend to put up in Tenino, but I can easily imagine placing gear that closely on a crack route, especially when close to the ground. Would you advocate removing the first bolts and using a stick clip? Certainly a viable though often sneered upon tactic. You could use a bouldering pad at the base and skip the first bolt. Do people routinely bring pads and/or stick clips to this crag? Either of those options only make sense if its the prevailing ethic at that crag. Option C, using riff-raff bolts, especially if installed by first ascensionists climbing well below their limit, are a fine example of ego driven wankery, but that's just my opinion. Frankly, it looks like a choss pile or a road cut, is this exhibit A in your body of evidence of degradation of the sacred rock by sport climbers? Sorry, I don't think the drama really bears up under scrutiny.

Crusing For A Care Bear, now that's a helluva name for a new route!

How about just a hand held tape recorder with that sound? With no experience or desire, I am definitely not a good candidate for gun ownership. I've got the dog though. Uh, he sounds much bigger in the dark. A good relationship with my various neighbors, all of whom are heavily armed, isn't a bad thing either.

I think that guy's claims have some glaring holes, but at least he's polite about it. His position is pretty congruent with Raindawg's rants, but he expressly doesn't engage in the "that's not real climbing" BS that raises everyone's hackles when the Dawg & Pope show do it here. The only problem with those removable bolts is finding the hole could be pretty difficult unless you spray painted a big red ring around the hole. It's hard enough to spot a stainless hanger far away on granite, my recent trip to the Valley actually had me missing the dark rusting beacons of old leeper hangers on the Apron. I think a crew should outfit those bolts with helium balloon markers every couple days so one can know just where one is casting off to.

I've gotten lost on Torment trying to find the S Ridge and done a couple grim pitches in mountain boots, but it was the moss in the fingerlocks on the 5.9 that was the issue not the rock quality. I've also done the usual SE face thing, and that moat problem late season is the crux of the whole deal. I didn't think the upper bit was any worse than lots of other things, though it wasn't worth raving about either. Sounds like it was the moat on the SE Face that got Craig Luebben, its a remarkably nasty thing on what's ostensibly an easy route. Oh, has anyone done the NW Ridge or the N Face? Surely Lowell must have? I've always been curious about those lines, but perhaps not curious enough.

Sweet, that guy found a no hands rest! Oh, and thanks Dru, that was perfect.

You know, I'd been thinking earlier it was a pity Dru wasn't around to weigh in on this important debate, but somehow this wasn't quite the content I was hoping for.

My point is that the spandex boy waxed your ass in that debate.

I looked at that picture from Jackson pretty closely, seems to me that there's 3 or 4 black people in that crowd, and one of them is a cop who's at work, and another is walking away. In a town with a 28% white population, it sure looks like the Teabaggers in Jackson MS are indeed overwhelmingly white.

I've stayed in the bathrooms with a party of five, but that was both midwinter and a long time ago. I've also schlepped up to Glacier Vista to sleep, but that was also winter.

That's terrible, I'm so sorry to hear this.

Funny thing is, most of those arguing against the Dawg & Pope show aren't sport climbers. It's the attitude and not the idea that gets people's backs up. Even Kimmo, the most unabashedly sporty one posting in this thread, is hardly a one trick pony. Any pollster can skew the results based on both the question asked and how it is phrased; that you found someone to agree with your conclusion is not statistically significant. Read any TR's here lately? Seems like this place is dominated by alpine climbers. How was Bears Breast by the way, did you climb it? That long slabby side has always looked appealing.

Set the rules, moderator...establish the boundaries...make an announcement. And while you're at it, you might want to add something about why it's apparently O.K. to ridicule my profession, e.g. call me a "grave robber", on a climbing web-site. "Dude....it's spray, man....anything goes!" Maybe you should get rid of "Spray" altogether, but then there would be no place to dump the ethics "discussions". The only reason anyone ridicules your profession is because you rise to that worm like a big old trout every time it gets tossed in the water. I sincerely doubt Choada or anyone else here has any problem with the study of ancient civilizations, it's just a proven way to poke you with a sharp stick. You respond with pokes at other's jobs as well, so clearly you must consider it all fair game. So no, making fun of someone's day job as a part of arguing is not a nice thing to do. You do things here that aren't nice also, and I know I do as well. Bug's observation that if you post more than twice in spray you're clearly an asshole is probably accurate, and I know he's including himself in that broad statement. We're all jerks sometimes, its just the way it goes. "Nice" is an unenforceable standard in this forum. With regard to the abuse of TR pictures though, that has repercussions beyond Spray, and that is an issue. Some people don't like them, but for most people, the TR's on this site consistently come up as the best content to be found here. That's why we don't want people to spray in TR's or abuse TR photos. We want MORE people to post TR's, of all levels of stuff. Pope's biking TR that included you as a participant was a fine addition to the site, and I most certainly wouldn't stand for anyone to use photos from that TR to ridicule you or Pope. Also, it's generally recognized that civil behavior around here includes removing a photo of someone if the subject of that photo asks you to do so. You've asked me to take down a picture of you from your day job that I used without permission, and I complied. Its come up for other people too, and it usually works out without bringing in any mods. I would hope that would be the case in this thread too. Anyway, there's your announcement from the moderator about how I view these sorts of things. If anyone wants to have a protracted discussion about this, let me know and I'll spawn this off as a separate thread.

No man...when it's about climbing, it's fair game...when it comes to one's personal life, it shouldn't be on the table. I was under the impression that on this site (Cascadeclimbers.com) pulling others trip reports and climbing pictures and putting them in spray to make fun of them was out of bounds. What gives me this impression was the tongue lashing Kevbone got from Porter when he did it not that long ago. ps, did you read my last diatribe Don? I've read all of yours and think I have a good response to you. You're exactly right Bill, though the one I recall was folks using Tvash's photo to make fun of his physique. He's pretty undentable, that one, but I was concerned about the effects on others. I don't care if it's about climbing or not, using people's TR photos to make fun of them in Spray is DEFINITELY NOT OKAY.