Off_White

Richard, is this your announcement that you are also Poptart?

I just read a bunch of his other blather, what an irritating fellow. Seems like a long time ago he wanted to be Ted Koppel, but in his dotage he's settled for giving Andy Rooney a run for his money.

Thanks, thats just the info needed. They're hoping to be a little bit lonelier up there on a Wednesday, but who knows....

Hey, we brought pop tarts instead of horsecock & cheese on our last outing, and it was rather tasty, but definitely go frosted with sprinkles...

My son is headed out with his friend tonight for their first self-contained alpine adventure. He wanted to know if the descent for S Ridge N Peak needs two ropes or if one will suffice. I haven't a clue, but I'm sure you do...

Yah, I think many mortals do wind up with a night out on that one. The route in Nelson's book was quite nice, but think late season so the snow is off the steep heather, and give a good look at the alternate descent we used that Beckey mentions via the west summit. We dropped off the ridge too soon (impatient) but it really wasn't epic, or risky, and the ample firewood for the bivy made stoves and sacks quite unnecessary. The rest of the descent went around a couple shoulders and down steep timber reminiscent of the other side of the valley. Beats the pants off dodging rocks in the CJ. Do put it on your list for next year, and you don't have to be a super alpinist, I'm certainly no better than just average, and it was a great climb with only moderate anxiety.

Oh, never mind, I didn't realize this morass (not moran) continued for a whole other page. [ 07-23-2002, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: Off White ]

Damn you trask! I've had that cow song stuck in my head all day long.

No Dwayner, you're supposed to suck it up, not be a suck up.

Captain: I try and not make assumptions about the ages of folks on this board unless they've announced them, and I hope to not play the old fart know it all, others are much better at it and more entitled As much as anything, I was trying to line out something that has been percolating in my head for a few weeks. I had about an 8 year hiatus from the mountains, aside from a couple trips, due to children, business, and my main partner becoming disinterested in the alpine game. Consequently, my reentry over the last couple years has highlighted what I think is a large increase in the numbers of folks climbing in the Cascades in the last decade. If you've been out there each year inbetween, I think the change doesn't seem so dramatic since it comes in smaller increments. Maybe its also partly my discovery of this board, and just how many people there are with a passion for what the Cascades offer. There was a time not so long ago I'd have never encountered you or had a clue what you've been up to, aside from passing you on a trail or seeing you as a dot down on a moraine somewhere. Erik: I've wondered about the whole trail deal also. If a rap sling is verboten (still under debate, I believe) then why would something as intrusive a trail (and signs!) be okay? What about maps, shouldn't wilderness areas just be blank grey sections, perhaps with a few drawings of fantastical creatures and the notation "here there be monsters?" I've been to both ends of the pendulum, from "why the hell hasn't anyone maintained this trail in 10 years, this is a pain in the ass" to "damn, that was lot of work, but it keeps the riff-raff out." There certainly is an appeal to making access harder rather than easier. Maybe that comprise you mention is this bizarre system of low tech infrequent trail repair: not too fast and not too much at any time. I do confess the "no wheelbarrow" business confuses the hell out of me. You can use a simple machine like the shovel (lever) but if you combine two simple machines (lever and wheel) to make a wheelbarrow? And while I'm spewing vast quantities of written word, does anyone know where the trails came from in the first place? I don't mean the original vague footpaths used in antiquity, who built, graded, an signed them? I've always assumed much of it came from the CCC (civilian conservation corps) back in the 30's, but don't know for sure.

Hah! A simple for sale notice derailed into spray! Yessss! I guess I finally made Corporal.

Well, I did go try to solo the CJ Couloir once and had an epic... on the freeway in Tacoma when all the wiring in the dash of my 1970 International melted down, filling the cab with acrid electrical smoke in the middle of rush hour. Inside of the dash looked like a toaster oven until I knocked the battery cable off.

Yeah, and first one to rap bolt a line on McKinley's South Face wins! Just imagine, 50 pitches and nothing but quickdraws...

Which p word, piece? Did you mean 38 or 44 caliber?

Easy there Sisu, I’m not trying to grab that bloody haunch from your hands, and I’m not trying to have a screaming fight with you, but I would like to have a conversation. You think wilderness designation is a “pile of crap,” but I’ll argue its been a tool that has preserved a significant chunk of the topography you and I both value. Go take an aerial tour of Vancouver Island and tell me that difficult terrain alone deters resource extraction. Would it please you to have the entire range look like Snoqualmie Pass? Wilderness is not something the Feds are using to thwart you, the recreating public, but something forced on the Feds by conservationist organizations (who do represent a significant percentage of the people) to thwart development interests. It is an imperfect tool, and some “collateral damage” does occur to people caught up in the gears, but I think it doesn’t invalidate the whole Wilderness Act, in much the same way that dropping a bomb on some innocent Canadians doesn’t invalidate the whole Afghanistan action. I do agree that the vigor with which the Wilderness Act is wielded depends on who’s in charge, but no one ever seems to adopt the populist position, which I interpret you as supporting: “Fixing trail should be done to enhance the recreation for the people.” And I’m with you on that, its one of the things I would like to see the Federal Government spend my money on. The only problem is the question of who is defining “recreation.” I favor the muscle powered form, and I think you do too. Someone else would argue that “recreation for the people” means I should be able to ride my quad to Goat Pass and use my dirtbike to explore the Enchantments. The Wilderness Act is one of the things that prevents this, it seeks to define what is “recreation for the people” for some areas. There’s a whole other thread’s worth of topic on the flawed Western concept of Wilderness, which is a landscape without human impact or presence. Fact is, people have been a presence in these landscapes for thousands of years. The classic example is Yosemite Valley, which so captivated John Muir. Those great meadows were in fact the product of human intervention, intentional fires that the natives set which controlled the growth of the pines but preserved the big oaks, which were a food source. Since it wasn’t plowed, no one understood that it was in fact agriculture. I think people do belong in wilderness, and I think the whole business of trying to manage designated “Wilderness” as an area of no human impact is the kernel at the heart of this whole matter. My primary hesitation in condemning the restrictions on tools for trail maintenance is based on a fuzzy concern that the issue is one of precedent, which is more about legal shenanigans than common sense. We can condemn lawyers for this mess, but really its about various forces trying to bend the rules to get what they want, and lawyers are just the tool. The lawyers on my side are of course the good lawyers. Anyway, I think we agree in principal, but not on specifics, and even I’m not so foolish as to think I can change your mind. I’m sure you’ll let me know just how egregiously I’ve misinterpreted what you meant, but hey, say it, don’t spray it.

So, if you can't figure out the personal picture thingy, does that make you an avatard?

quote: Originally posted by trask: actually i've climbed all along i just didn't want to kop to it Oh, say it ain't so! Another cherished misconception exploded...

Is that the Scot'teryx signature model? I hear they are collectors items fetching quite a pretty penny on ebay.

OH, and with regards to the topic, I did NE Rib long ago (hence no current conditions beta) and found it to be just fine, a little scurrying at the bottom in the threat zone, but not particularly loose or scary. We took the right hand way at the top (rap into the narrow couloir, up that to the snow crest) and loved it. I think it took us about 9 hours, Beckey guidebook time. The descent is another thing, as we went down some gully on the s. face, wound up doing some crux downclimbing to the moat, and did not make it out that night. Bivy was wonderful though, nice patch of grass surrounded by dead trees, great fire all night long. We did the descent to the West instead of the couloir or to the pass, it was long but no big deal. Bushed at the bottom though, bummed a ride back up to the car instead of hoofing it. Had one of the worst meals after a big climb ever at that place on the right in Marblemount, just after you cross the bridge over the Skagit. Anyway, I'd say its good, go get it.

quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: Did they have hobnailed boots and hemp ropes!? Hah, I've always wanted to go climbing at Smith with that get up, wool knickers and one of those alpine caps with a feather too!

yeah, I understand that's the original source of many trails, but who and when did things get graded, cut, water bars put in, bridges made, signs put up, all that. There's quite a difference between a boot built track and a main trail, and someone did that work, presumably with public money. You know, like the difference between the "trail" into Mt Torment versus the trail to Cascade Pass.

oh, go on trask, give it another try

I believe that its one more week in Seattle, but I'm not certain

Sisu said: I have found that even with the trails cleared 90% of all the people out there are TOO LAZY to venture more than a day hike away from their motel, car, home, TV etc., so if your concern is over "over use" park it. 10% of 280 million citizens is still a lot of people. I've been playing around in the backcountry for 30 years, and anecdotal and experiental evidence suggests a large increase in use. What are the chances this year of: Climbing the complete North Ridge on Stuart during a fine weather weekend and not encountering another person anywhere after passing the Colchuck Lake trail? Being the only party camped at Sahale in good weather? Climbing Forbidden without seeing another person for 36 hours? Being the only party at Darrington on the weekend... any weekend you went there for 3 years? I now feel privleged to have done all these, but at the time I took it for granted. I'll agree that most people are not backcountry wilderness users, but over use is an issue, and feeling smugly superior to couch dwelling suburbanites does not constitue a viable wilderness policy. Erik: who do you propose taking over administration of Federal lands? The States? Weyerhauser? Alcoa? Anyone with a big enough gun to enforce their claim? Perhaps we should let everything east of the Cascade crest fall to those east siders who want us moron west siders to stay away... (I know, off topic poke at Dennis & Stewart, oh well).

Actually, I believe that rule is only in designated wilderness areas, which are by definition off limits to logging. The Forest Service is not really known for its restraint of the mechanized world. Sisu, which trail are you talking about?