Off_White

Trask, you are the man! And you now have your own special title too!

No, lets talk about the correlation between political views and attitude towards sport climbing! If we could find a way to tie it into gender superiority, gun ownership, and the appropriateness of public drug use we just might have the perfect thread to offend absolutely everyone on this board. It would probably be the electronic equivalent of burping farting sneezing and yawning at the same time, and everyone's system would simultaneously melt down.

Pope, the topic is "what is your favorite sport climb?" not "is sport climbing okay for someone else if I don't like it?" Start another thread if you wanna hash that one out yet again. C'mon, it you're so fired up against sport climbing, you must have done some to fuel your opinion, so which was your favorite? We all assume its a given that its your choice of the lesser evil.

quote: Originally posted by MysticNacho: bolts tend to stick around. Boy, not some of those scary rusty 1/4"er's I've clipped. I think you underestimate the power of weather and corrosion.

quote: Originally posted by Jim: Mtn Goat - But I'm forced to pay for your opinion such as the likes of military hardware, business tax breaks, payments to for-profit health care, etc. I'd rather pay for more social benefits - education, universal health care, environmental protection. But here's the catch - no money - no influence. Spray all you want but it's not a level field and 'sur isn't no free market. Jim: While Mtn Goat may support the military hardware thing (he's chimed in in favor of the missle defense idea), I doubt he's in favor of business tax breaks and such. He's a libertarian, not a "conservative." My simplistic breakdown is that conservatives want government to assist business even at the expense of the public, liberals want government to act as a buffer between business and the public, and libertarians want the government to have nothing to do with business at all (neither help nor hinder). Its not that I agree with him (though I do on some points, its that "libertarian" as a political idea is something quite different from the liberal-conservative bipolar disorder, which is what makes it interesting to look at. [ 08-27-2002, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Off White ]

quote: Originally posted by Jim: Greg- Really now - you have to admit our President is the dumbest in recent memory. I'd even put Ford ahead of this guy. Apropos of nothing, I was once arrested for trying to assasinate Gerald Ford with a paper airplane. Honest.

I'm not looking for route info, but was wondering if anyone has been up into the basin below Silver Star and the Spires lately and knows if there is any water up there now, and how have the bugs been?

quote: Originally posted by trask: quote:hehehe I do try to avoid political and religious subjects...unless I'm drunk and wearing pink in a Cowboy Saloon Oh my god, you made me laugh so hard that if I'd been drinking beer it would have come out my nose. Sometimes having a vivid imagination can be a real curse

quote: Originally posted by trask: What a way to blow the day. They should've been climbing, or drinking beer, or chasing hoochie mamas, you know, something worthwhile. You know how it is Trask, arguing politics with someone is like wrestling with a pig, after awhile you realize they like it. I thought you avoided these threads, if you're not careful you'll have to increase your blood pressure medication.

Haw! I did it, a Mtn Goat style response. Be afraid, be very afraid. “Are cops supposed to go home to their families with crushed skulls, broken limbs, or missing eyes, so protestors don't feel threatened? I can't understand why someone who is supposed to stand in front of hundreds of people is supposed to do so without appropriate protection. They're *supposed* be to hard to hurt, they're *supposed* to be able to do their jobs without worrying about bricks they don't see flying above the crowd.“ The track record so far suggests it the protestors who are far more in need of protective gear. “So they're unhappy. OK. Lots of people are unhappy, only some feel this makes it OK to fill the streets and threaten cops. Maybe they need to do some work on why their unhappiness means they need to display it in public in threatening ways. Peaceful protestors walk *by* cops, they don't turn and confront them.” Don’t confuse non-violent with non-confrontational. The barricade arrangement is not designed to allow “walk by” demonstration, but rather to (as you put it) “block travel of other free citizens.” If I oppose Retrosaurus’ bolt chopping activities, and confront him (picket, argue, rappel the line and hang from the bolts in question) at the crag, even if he is as big and scary (like cops in armor) as Caveman asserts, it doesn’t give him carte blanche to assault me. And it would not be effective to merely wave a sign at him and walk away either. Without confrontation and pressure, things don’t change. “That would be a start. *Choosing* to stop buying consumer goods, taking vacations using fuel swilling jets, ceasing to buy hi tech corporate products like music devices, computers, outdoor gear, eating foods trucked thousands of miles, etc.... these simple choices by all those people would *instantly* change an economy in ways no nasty old capitalist could do anything about.” I hear ya, hypocrites are irritating. You (or others) may view me as a rabid commie leftist, but actually I believe in moderation and compromise rather than extremism. The thing is, if someone is going to argue unbendingly full tilt in one direction, someone else has to argue the other direction just as hard if you want to wind up in the middle. My grandfather used to work for International Harvester, and travel all over the world investigating accidents and developing arguments for the lawyers to prove that in all cases Harvester had no responsibility for the equipment that failed on that bus full of schoolchildren. I asked him how he could live with that, when he knew in fact that sometimes it was the companies fault. He said that you count on the other side having effective representation to argue their point, but his job was to work for his employer’s interest, and that between the two positions the system works. “What is it called when "progressives", use the same places to campaign for more govt programs? Is that opportinism too? Seems to me this "opportunism" is decided by political reasons.” Well of course, but as I’m well aware (and if you would only submit, you would too), I’m right... err, I mean correct. “I agree with you here, on the civil liberties, I'm all for missile defense.” I know Libertarianism well enough to know where you and I are allies. I’d love to debate missile defense with you, but lets agree to spare everyone that right now, okay? “ I do not agree with these protesters on nearly anything they say, I agree they have the right to protests, but when I see people *stay* at a barrier and *intentionally* face cops for long periods of time, they're not choosing the peaceful route IMO.” Well, I don’t agree with nearly anything you say, but I’d be equally outraged if you participated in a pro-globalism demonstration and got sprayed for it. Come to think of it, where are those pro-globalism rallies? If it’s such a good thing for so many people, wouldn’t there be more evidence of support, people coming out to oppose those thuggish lefties?

quote: Originally posted by Fairweather:

quote: Originally posted by Dru: and as a govt employee I am an endangered species... And you work hard for your money! What are you still doing at work at 4:22? Bah, enough of this, I'm going climbing.

quote: Originally posted by greghinemeyer: hanging aroung nothing to do but frown rainy days and mondays always get me down. k.c. Yeah, but the Monsoon makes some of the best lightning displays I've ever personally seen.

Yeah Peter, Echo is pretty cool. Looks like if you want one of those sweet little cabins on the upper lake you've to marry into it. I'm working on my daughter. Donner is a bit of a drive, but we were staying with friends in Truckee that day, so it was a piece of cake. Hey Caveman, aren't you a DL Bliss fan? It was 85 and the sun was so intense you couldn't stand barefoot on the sand the day we were there, so I spent most of the day in the lake, but there's some great bouldering in that park. Fortunately, its been awhile since you were at Echo, and I resisted the urge to drink the lake. Bobby, the east side will be another trip, we're considering Annie Green Springs for Saturday.

quote: Originally posted by erik: DFA, I WAS A BIT JUDGEMENTAL ON THOSE PEEPS...AND DAT IS MY ISSUE...DANKE Well Erik, like any good ropegun, you shoot from the hip and examine the rack when you're 40' out... (ps: dude, hit the caps lock key, yer shouting)

Bobby my boy, you're positively foaming. I was just discussing this very topic with a buddy a couple days ago, laying plans for a short trip in mid-October. Sequoia also sounded good, and we had a good trip to Courtright that time of year, but that one's a little high and we did have 4" of snow one day. Of course, Red Rocks raises its patinaed head, as does the prospect of a first trip to Owens. Are you and Lula headed to the Needles, or are you just stirring the shit and getting antsy?

quote: Originally posted by erik:

goddamn you write fast Mtn Goat, I'm still thrashing about trying to figure out the point by point response mechanism (and totally lost a reply to you in the process) and you're just churning it out fast as can be while I'm trying to trade witticisms with Erik. Anyway, in response to your first query, no I don't think all anti-abortion people endorse assasination, anymore than I think all progressives support riots. You pointed out that it seems to be only the progressives who riot, and I thought I'd point out it seems to be only the Christian Right who practice assasination. phew, now I gotta read what you wrote, but I gotta get back to work too. I think they need to add a "policy wonk" category and award it to you It's fun working though your stuff though, so thanks. [ 08-26-2002, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Off White ]

quote: Originally posted by erik: quote:could you consider a logger hitting a spike in a tree and being killed an assaination attempt....???? Yeah, unannounced tree spiking is booby trapping, like throwing caltrops on a highway. Have any loggers actually been killed that way? I'm not suggesting maiming is more acceptable, I'm just curious. If they know the trees are spiked, and cut anyway, is that the same as Mnt Goat's claims of provocation, and that they should accept personal responsibility for the situation they placed themselves in? quote: what about destroying millions in private in public property.....fuck maybe we should burn down all the ski resorts and loot and vadalize all the research facilites in universities. Just as a note, ski areas are not public property, though they are often located on public lands. The ELF is certainly engaged in property destruction, and the Justice Department has declared them the #1 domestic terror agency in the country. They do not try and kill people. Christians with rifles who unequivocally target individuals and the Leaders who exhort them just don't rate the same with Mr. Ashcroft I guess. Property destruction does get the insurance industry all worked up though. That said, no I don't endorse the ELF's activities. oh yeah and what about all billy c. homeboys dyin all myserious like?? killed for a different reason, but still killed by the left. I'm sorry, I don't get the reference. Is billy c Clinton and the homeboys a reference to Vince whatsisname? Well, Clinton is no lefty, and no pal of mine, but I doubt he's at the heart of some byzantine murder-for-hire scheme. Besides, the left gets the government to do the killing for them, like Ruby Ridge and Waco. Shit Erik, we don't even have guns! ..

At least the progressives have not begun targeted assasinations, unlike the anti-abortion crowd. In the pictures I saw online, the crowd did not look agressive, and they didn't seem to be pressing the barricades. I agree that "stormtroopers" is a kneejerk phrase, but the outfits do suggest it. Larry the Tool is just a cop, but I don't see you all falling all over yourselves to gush about what a great public servant he is and what a drag it is to put up with all those grimy unemployed antisocial climber types who are just waiting for a chance to fuck things up, cut new trails, evade the permit process, and falsify documents. Fact is, a lot of people are unhappy with our "President" who is planning on a little October war to help out with the November elections. What do you want them to do, go volunteer at Head Start and adopt kittens? Bush is also an opportunistic bastard, using Southern Oregon's fear, misery, and double digit unemployment to advance his pro-industry/anti-environment ideolgy, in the same way he used the terrorist attacks to justify other bits of unpopular lunacy like the Missle Defense Corporate Welfare plan and the erosion of civil liberties (which should alarm any Libertarian as much as anyone on the Progressive side). So what do you want people to do? Write letters to their representatives? Yeah, I just love form letter response. Shut up and vote? By every possible recount criteria, Bush was not elected, so even if you win it doesn't matter. I'm NOT advocating rioting in the streets, but I'm also no fan of the "don't bother me, I'm comfortable" stance others seem so fond of.

Hey, that about adds up to a 40 hour work week!

quote: Originally posted by trask: I've also eaten a slug or two in my time...have you? No, I haven't yet (life is long, who knows?) but I've been told the slime acts as an anaesthetic, did it make your tongue numb? I imaging cooking would change that, and the little ones you find in salad are probably too small to have a noticeable effect. [ 08-25-2002, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Off White ]

quote: Originally posted by bobbyperu: fuck i love good music and theres nothin quite like a good live show... Hear hear, I couldn't agree more [ 08-25-2002, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Off White ]

Johnstone Canyon up to the paint pots as a nice dayhike. I've only been there in October, so I have no idea what summer crowds are like. Or try that approach in to North Twin, as far as the col where everything opens out, its a bit brutual, but what a place. Also, on Andromeda, consider the North Face as compared to Skyladder (you can make the decision once you get close). Its a little longer, a little steeper, and tends to have more ice. Think about mountain bikes for bad weather entertainment too, lots of good riding up there. Its true what Caveman says, winter sometimes arrives around now and the snow just accumulates instead of melting off between storms, the maples all turn colors where the cold air sluices down off the peaks, and the tourists largely stop getting out of their cars. A nice season unless you have your heart set on getting up something in particular. [ 08-25-2002, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Off White ]

.5 tricam 5" tube chock stick clip that should cover the gamut....