Off_White

I believe he's among the ranks of the self-employed. Better hope you're not one of his clients. Ever see Fargo?

I'd like to make the next Tacoma date, and next week would be a little better for me than this Tuesday.

Yo, Dennis: take it to Spray, not the general discussion.

Thanks for editing out the various entries of the brawl, I saw some of it last night and it made me feel sad. Best of luck to both of you.

Well, I don't know about the alpine world, Hood is okay, some of the other volcanoes look interesting, but I prefer the North Cascades, which are a long pull from Portland. Aside from that drawback, Portland is a great place, one of my favorite cities. Rocky Butte and Broughton Bluff are both after-school distances away, Smith is probably 3 hours, Beacon Rock is a total crack house, and there's bound to be more rock I don't know about. I haven't much climbed around there, but I've recently gotten a copy of the new Portland Rock guide, and there looks to be plenty of diversion. The urban delights are good too, distinct neighborhoods, great transit system, a great music scene, and yes, I think there are a couple indoor gyms. I just went to the Crystal Ballroom for the first time to see a show, and its the best room I've been to in a decade. So, don't stress too much at the prospect of moving there, I think life could be good.

quote: Originally posted by mattp: what can be done when the removal of offensive bolts does not seem to accomplish ... the alteration of bolting practices? I think that's the crux of the biscuit for sure Matt. Your calm debate style brings to mind that old sea stack, the Old Man of Hoy, resolutely upright while lashed all about by spray. Not that I'm trying to pick fights with any of the strong opinions here about, I just wanted to tip my hat to Matt. I wish I had an answer, I'll be thinking on it for a few days while I'm out of town.

quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: I think his name was Brooke Sandahl. Actually, I believe it still is....

quote: Originally posted by Dennis Harmon: Your lame asses have had enough access to our side of the state Just as sport bolters come in all ages, they also come from all parts of the state. There's a pretty large pod of them on "your" side in Spokane, aren't there? And I'm sure everyone in Der is not as pure as the driven snow...

Mitch: I was thinking of the bolt war in Tucson ca. 85-86, the one in the Valley where hangers got mashed over, I believe there was one in City of Rocks, and I know there were some in Colorado, but I'm weak in that history. Tucson was the only one I was present for, but its a longer topic than I have time for this morning. That one wasn't actually a bad model, so I'll write about it later if anyone is interested. Sounds like you're thinking about what you're pulling, and you have a specific target: bolt proliferation adjacent to natural protection. I think you'll find a lot more supporters than if you were just out on a vendetta against the bolt in general. The TR request is just that I, and I assume other people, wanna know. If what you're doing is making a statement, its gotta be clear and public to be effective. I'm not asking for names because I want to humiliate anyone, I just don't think you should let the issue of anonymity overshadow what you're up to. Its a good point about the bolt placers not being public, that's mostly due to delay in guidebook publishing and no local forum for route reporting that is widely embraced. I think they should own up to their actions too. By "bold" I refer to the act of dismantling protection rather than a climbing style. It may be sad that taking direct action and responsibilty for that action is bold and visionary, but I think its true. And btw, Off White actually is my name, not an avatar. Rather, its a widely used nickname, but I cash checks made out that way and I've had mail arrive addressed just to "Off White, Tenino WA" Don't try that now though, I have no confidence in the intelligence of my new mail carrier... Well, hell, I gotta work. Cheers.

quote: [/qb]kick over a cairn for me some day.[/QB] Hah! I love that game. Getting back to the car with a pocket full of flagging tape can also be a good time.

quote: Originally posted by Marty: Matt, Didn't you buy an Inland NW. Rockclimbs book? Oh! Shameless plug! Wrong to boot, the boat stuff I've done and seen was clean as can be, and definitely not in the guide. C'mon Marty, get a boat.

quote: Originally posted by sk: hey dennis- did a little dinner recon this evening, got some info that I wanted to share with you. The man that bolted the routes that I hate at flagstone, is in his 40's. Is that gen X? Oh, and those bold leads by the lions of yesteryear? Mostly, done when they were young. Typically, in a bolt war, the real loser is the rock you purport to revere. Put 'em in, pull 'em out, put 'em back in, pull 'em back out, ad nauseum. I guess in all the hyperbole and posture (both sides of course), I'm not clear on what bolts you propose to pull. Are you just going after egregiously placed bolts adjacent to natural pro, or are you out to remove bolt protected face climbs? One might be an effective statement, but the other is likely to get brickbats from both camps. But alas, even I tire of this flapdoodle. Do what you want, but post a TR after the fact. If you want to be bold visionaries, don't sneak around like a terrorist, take responsibility for your actions, and real names too if you please...

Wouldn't matter, he'd lie about it anyway.

quote: Originally posted by Dru:

And you've established both sport routes and alpine climbs. I really feel that self-loathing is your best bet....

You're right Dan, I'm the doof Ummm, lets substitute Yaniro for Leavitt.

Hey Dwayner: I was just thinking about that article this weekend. I started in 74, had a copy of that catalog, and not being much of a wall guy, I've only placed about a dozen pins in my life, so that revolution happened pretty damn quick. What I was reflecting on this weekend, as I was introducing two youth to the fine art of trad leading, was that the real reason for that shift was that nuts were easier and faster. I don't think the clean climbing revolution would have happened so fast or completely if nuts were harder to use than pins, its simply a better technology. Its always easier to get things to change if you make it easier and cheaper, like getting manufacturers to stop polluting is easy if you can prove it will save them money. The uphill battle is that sport climbing is easier (in terms of effort to get out climbing, not in terms of ratings) and cheaper (rack of draws versus a set of cams & nuts). And sometimes, we all want easier, this is why most of us buy beer instead of make it. I'm not saying your cause is pointless or useless, just that you're not going to have some startling paradigm shift like what happened in the early 70's.

Ummm, Dennis, you're anthropomorphising here. The mountains aren't your friend, lover, or enemy. They aren't out to get you, help you, or give you wood: they don't even notice. When it takes a couple million years to just roll over in your sleep, (see, I can be anthroposophmoric too)mayflies like us just don't rate. Climbing is strictly a human game, and the rules are arbitrary. Arguing over rules is perhaps the oldest human game. But in the geological scheme, a few million bolts don't matter one whit, they'll be gone in the blink of an eye. Just go check out Squamish after the next time the glaciers pass through.

Greg: I was under the impression he was joking, but sarcasm comes through so poorly in this medium. Thats tough, because it is one of my favorite ways of being snide. It seemed to me that CB was pretending to be Harmon for that paragraph, but that may be only because I have contemplated that sort of retort myself. On the otherhand, I may be completely misinterpreting, and your response may be spot on. Danged modern world.

Is there some reason why you wouldn't use a double fishermans knot for tieing your ropes together for a rappel? I don't think I've ever used anything else.

I've boat climbed out there a number of years back, did some additional exploring too. Boat rental in Electric City. You could hand launch a canoe near Highway Rock too, and poke about handily, as long is it wasn't too windy. We found the slab that was shown in Whitelaw's article -- looked like nice slabby face climbs, 1/4" bolts. Across one of the channels from that slab, facing the highway (can't remember if the road was visible though) we found a nice crack that started as a steep undercling, 10c or so, with a #3 friend left behind. Bonus! I placed that cam twice yesterday. We put up a route just left of that, some delicate 11a face (bolt or two) to an inverse quartz dike- as if you split the dike open and made a crack. Exploring around the water bound cliffs is a real treat. We also put up a couple routes off of a road, does Taylor Canyon make sense? There were a couple large formations you could drive down and park between. We climbed on what would be the n face of the s formation. I believe there is a bolt on one of them. Kinda dirty/licheny though, couldn't say I recommend those. There is also a big tombstone type slab off to the left as you drive from Steamboat Rock to Electric City. We walked out there looking around, and found a couple 1/4" stubs on top of the big face, which looked like it would clean up into a couple really nice 5.10 face climbs. Have fun, its a great spot.

quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: The whole Trad vs. Sport thing and usually defined is pretty much the construction of marketing types. I dunno Petey. I agree with most of your post, but while I'd love to blame everything on marketing, the division in this country has been around at least since Alan Watts began applying Euro sport techniques to Smith, and the virus spread from there. Remember the old Kauk/Chapman fisticuffs back in the 80's over some route in the valley? Back then, marketing as an industry didn't really have its shit together with regard to climbing, it wasn't really identified as a market worth focusing the all seeing eye upon yet...

quote: Originally posted by ajosephfd: This should generate a bit of controversy from you bolt-happy little pussies. jfd Not unless your opinion matters.

I think you both have pieces of it, but since humans are involved its a considerably more complicated situation. You could state that folks with a wilderness background tend to be trad climbers or that people who are introduced to the sport by gym rat friends tend to become sport climbers, but if you look around there are lots of exceptions. For example: Todd Skinner, Wyoming boy with a backcountry upbringing, introduced to the sport by his Trad climbing dad, he's definitely a sport climber, but he's pushing that into an alpine arena. Randy Leavit, he puts up sport climbs, but he also does damned hard routes on natural gear. Doesn't do any alpine climbing at all. What is he, aside from a better climber than most of us? Jeff Lowe, a man with serious alpine and trad credentials, but what is this new fangled mixed stuff if its not cold bolt protected tool using sport climbing? I'm sure you'll find similar connundrums among the less superstar population of this board. I learned trad back when there was no other way, but we were also rap bolting on small local crag in 1978. My buddy Galen and I have done a lot of alpine climbing together, but on a trip last fall to Spring Mountain in Eastern Oregon, I think the only gear we placed in 4 days of climbing was for anchors at the base. Which brings to mind a whole other question: if you place anchors at the base of a sport climb, are you really a sport climber? Anyway, for all that, I'd lump myself into the trad category, but that would probably make me the same as a Catholic who uses birth control and thinks the Pope is a little out of touch. Good question though, thanks.

Nope, not a dead issue yet. Oh, sport climbing is largely accepted these days, but folks keep chipping away at the edges, bolting cracks, retro-bolting, bolting holds on, etc. Here's a link to an interview with Steve Grossman, who has an article on ethics in the current Black Diamond catalog: grossman interview Of course, if you're oh so tired of this whole thing, just move on