Off_White

All that x-ray radiation coming at you, I've got a good nickname for that rig: The Good Tumor Truck.

Personally, I'm hoping see it develop as a long via ferrata traverse.

But, they talk about it all the time in Chicago.

It's been interfering with my Via Ferrata installation on my secret cliff. Once I get the kinks worked out, I'm heading out on tour to install them at all major climbing areas, but not during the summer, it's too hot.

Very effective troll then. I hope you like fish, you'll be eating it for a week. (Anyone weary of the soap opera should stop here) To get back to Pope on his last post: You’re not confused, you’re just obfuscating. As moderator, it’s my job to keep things civil, but I’m not the seminar leader, and I’m hardly precluded from having my own opinion. I was following your digressions about via ferrata and responding to someone’s assertion that arguing with you is pointless. My assertion is that it’s pointless because you are a fundamentalist with regards to climbing. I arrived at my statement after reading your postings for the last three years. I’m not going to paw through all your stuff to find supporting quotes, this is my opinion, not a term paper. More obfuscation. I’m discussing the whole of climbing, not just mountaineering. Climbing is made up of a whole series of games, each of which can have multiple rules. Your insistence that there is only one valid set of commandments for the whole sport only futher confirms my fundamentalist nomination Actually, I said “No, I don't accept via ferrata as an acceptable modification within the confines of the diverse sport called climbing” and there’s no “vehemence” implied. Let’s parse out the rest of your bullshit: Boasting? More like confessing, but certainly no more than disclosing. Actually, it’s four holds, in a man made sandstone quarry, providing access through a band of rotten rock to get to the good climbing. Secret? You mean the quarry publicly described and photographically represented in the Olympia Pub Club thread in the Events forum? It’s private, not secret, as in located in my front yard on my property. You’re welcome to come on down some Wednesday, I’d actually much rather climb with you than argue. Sport climbing has been around about 25 years now. Can you provide even a single instance in all that time to suggest that sport climbing is a gateway drug to the installation of rebar and cable hiking trails up the crags and walls of North America? None? Then let’s give this particular bit of hysterical handwaving a rest, okay? This one’s a real howler. Since when have I been deleting posts that are critical of me? I didn’t even delete or change anything from this thread, merely shipped off the “fuck you pope” bits to spray, preserving each and every precious word. Oh, and wow, you mean you’ll report me to Ascensionist? Golly gosh, that puts the fear in me. Please re-read my earlier post, I stated that I knew nothing about the route and didn’t have the info to form an opinion. I agree with you, I’m really clueless regarding Numbah Ten. I asked a series of questions, which you were either disinclined or incapable of answering. It’s quite possible I even agree with you, I simply don’t have the data and have never been an Index regular. Damn, that was to write, I can only imagine your pain, dear reader.

It is rather ironic that after all the theoretical babble about how excessive modern bolting will reduce access due to the horrors of impact perceived by land managers, it's actually a trad climber that gets an exceptional crag ruined and obliterated for life. Never mind merely closed....

Certainly that's the way the area looms in my mind, and I don't know of anywhere in the western part of Washington better suited to this sort of designation.

Now Pope, I haven't engaged in cutsie pie diminuations of your name, and frankly you come off as a cad starting in with it. I don't necessarily mean "fundamentalist" as a perjorative term, rather as a descriptor. Is it inacurate? I don't think you're a fundamentalist based on your opinions about one particular pitch, it's an overall philosophy thing: You believe your position is based on the secular sport based equivalent of the "word of god" and the history of the sport itself. You believe your interpretation is the only correct one. You believe no other interpretation of the original intent or alternate belief systems have any merit whatsoever. Your interpretation of history is selective, only encompassing those texts and passages that support your interpretion, and cleverly discount, ignore, or avoid those which don't. Your statements such as "I can't see how adding bolts is ever justified (except maybe at a belay on a popular climb)" are devoid of nuance, a binary world view: one is either a member of your belief system or an unworthy infidel. Yes, I'm saying that your prepostion of an array of ladders, handles, steps, and cables being the equivalent of bolt protected free climbing is ludicrous, stupid, and inflammatory. That you can see no difference only further confirms your fundamentalist status. No, I don't accept via ferrata as an acceptable modification within the confines of the diverse sport called "climbing" and I believe very few practicioners, whether boulderers, gym climbers, crack climbers, sport climbers, alpinists, or new wave mixed climbers do either. One might find others within the "hiking" community who think it's a good idea, but I'd guess it would have to be in service of getting somewhere "cool." The only domestic via ferrata I'm familiar with is the rebar ladder on Bath Dome at City of Rocks in Idaho. I've never been up it, but I've definitely seen people on top of the formation who did not look like they were at home that far off the ground. I've never heard anyone propose chopping it, and it's certainly not established right over some route. I freely confess that I know nothing about Numbah Ten, aside from what I read here. Did anyone ever lead it onsight as a free climb on gear only? Isn't the breaking strength on a #2 RP something in the neighborhood of 500 to 800 lbs? What's the chronology of the route and it's various ascents? Was it a popular aid route, or did it disappear back into the moss before it became a free route? Do you have a picture of the route? I simply do not have enough information to form an opinion about this route in particular, so I can't know whether I either agree or disagree with you about Numbah Ten.

Hey! You cannot fuck me without my permission!

Alright, I clipped off the part where the topic becomes "who's an asshole" and sent that to Spray. There's some serious disagreement here, and yeah, personality conflict too, but let's try and stick to the topic at hand and be somewhat adult about it. Personally, I think Pope's argument about Numbah 10 = that via ferrata in the picture is a flamboyant over-the-top troll, but that doesn't make him insincere. The bit where he states that he sees no reason to ever add a bolt to a climb anywhere, aside from a belay improvement, is as I understand it, his core belief. Do I read you right Pope? Personally, I think that is a fundamentalist position, not traditional at all. The idea that climbing is all about cheating death, and that the purest climbs are those where all but the most skilled are sure (and deserve) to die is revisionist malarky. Poorly protected death routes are often either a product of the technology available at the time of the first ascent, or a product of overly inflated ego. With regards to the free climb (with bolts) versus aid climb, I think the much lauded lions of yesteryear who popularized clean climbing (Choinard, Robinson, etc) also believed that free climbing was superior to aid climbing, especially nailing. Anyway, as I said, I think Pope's position is fundamentalist, a call for a return to an interpretation of the founding principles of the sport. I suppose one could argue that the 1972 Chouinard Catalog constitutes the new testatment of his faith. Hence, you won't "win" an argument with him if you don't believe as he does. This is getting too long winded, I gotta go. I'll blab about my own liberal tradition some other time. Or not... Wikipedia on "fundamentalisim" is my quote source.

Shouldn't that be "terribleism charges"?

It'll behoove ya to care for your uvula.

Frobisher never really grasped the concept of polite conversation, but he was a wild eyed demon with a cricket bat.

Pure Skirt Volume? Tell me that isn't just crying out to be used as a route name.

WEDNESDAY 8/10/05 update Should be another great evening, temps have been a little cooler too. The trail above got a serious overhaul, and some trail work happened down on the left side base too. Floater, the 5.11a slab has been cleaned up and climbed recently. I'll have a rope on that one, as well as one on something a little more obscure down on the left end too.

That's fucking outrageous. Sorry Murray, but that town has to be burnt to the ground.

No dear, some of us have just never forgotten your arrival announcement.

The worst part is that Bush cancelled an earlier attempt to speak there, but only at the last minute, due to heat. It didn't do any favors for the multitude that waited for hours in that heat to hear him. The appearance was a cheesy stunt, but I imagine most any president would be hard put to pass up such photo/news op so close to home. My beef with Bush is more that I disagree with him, less that he engaged in thread drift.

There is no god: flaming assholes are richly rewarded for unspeakable acts, and innocent people get handed the shit end of the stick every day. Thankfully, mere bigots and hypocrites are not sentenced to death by some deity, otherwise we'd all be dead. The folks killed at that Jamboree represent indvidual tragedies, not some sort of institutional atonement. The slow religious revolution that has taken over the Boy Scouts is pretty disgusting, but that's an entirely different subject than the recent traumatic events.

As stated, there is no one-to-one correspondence. There are some appealing traverses though: Tantalus Traverse in BC Torment-Forbidden Complete East Ridge on Silverstar Pickets, both Southern and Northern Waddington Range in BC Viennese-Clarke in BC plus others I'm sure I'm not thinking of. Major glacial traverses, either in BC or the Eldorado area also offer some stunning alpine travel. Recent TR for the Klawatti Icefield in N. Cascades Forum offers some great photos.

You mean, once your friends get married they find you less interesting? How sad for you.

He's been, ummm, errr, "domesticated."

erik is not as gone as you think.

Always go to bed before you go to sleep.

Yep, it is a hoot. The sandstone here is skin friendly, and tape wouldn't help with the lieback, since it's sort of a tips affair. There are about six hand jams on the entire crag, I treasure each and every one of them.