pindude

quote: Originally posted by Jedi: Tom, if you score one and someone else contacts you, let me know. I need one also. Jedi Jedi, when did Allison become Tom? Something going on here we don't know about? If so, then it sure puts a spin on "score" and what you "need!" Cheers, pindude

quote: Originally posted by ryland moore: ...But I still think that we will be forced to deal with this situation in the near future if we haven't already had to do so. For example, when I first started climbing eleven years ago, I was with an experienced guy climbing in the Tetons. As we passed by a small group, not wearing helmets, belaying improperly and using a rope that looked more like a static line or those tree climbing ropes you see foresters using, my partner turned to me and said, we better stay away from those yahoos or they may get us into trouble or force us to have to rescue them. Maybe they were old-school or hard-core, but I have heard many climbers say this when they see someone doing something they shouldn't in the mountains. Is it my job to point out their errors? Or do we continue to "stay away" so that we won't have to deal with a rescue or them causing us harm? What if someone had emntioned in passing to the guys on Hood, "Maybe it is not such a good idea to stay roped up above the 'schrund, or do you think you guys might be a little too close to the party above ya? Or to the guy on the snowboard attempting the descent of Cooper - Are you sure you wanna board down a route you didn't climb first? I have always taken the avoidance, out of sight, out of mind approach, but am reconsidering my actions. So what if the guy tells me to fuck off - I don't know what the hell I am talking about. I will probably never see the guy in my life again. But, what if I say it to a less experienced climber and it makes him pause for a moment to think that maybe he/she is over their heads and is reconsidering their actions. It could prevent an injury. Thoughts? Ryland, your 11 years experience should be telling you those guys in the Tetons were NOT hard core or old school, obviously. When climbing accidents happen, it reflects on all of us who are climbers. Your guide buddy should have said something, as you should be too, without having to mull it over. You called your friend "experienced." How experienced? I would like to believe most of us who have come across gumbies or gumby situations have done the honorable and responsible and have said what needed to be said. As previously mentioned by others on this board, there are ways to tactfully approach other climbers when cluing them in to their misdeeds and potential fuck-ups. Even if they respond negatively--and a lot do--at least you have nothing to regret. Tonight I was getting in some after-work bouldering and saw some high-school age climbers top-roping on static line run through a single non-locking biner connected to a single sling and bolt (many of us have seen worse). The obvious, responsible climber in the group was glad to hear suggestions on what made a safe, bombproof anchor, and we both walked away the better for it, without thinking ill of each other. You shouldn't have to think twice about it: Next time don't think about running away, run TOWARD them and clue them in. --pindude [ 06-08-2002, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: pindude ]

quote: Originally posted by payaso: With this and the accident at Hood today be ready for massive public debate to be brought up regarding the ever recurring 'Who should pay for the rescue' issue. This coverage just precipitates the public perception that climbing is 'crazy' and that climbers should have to pay their own bill for the rescue. No shit, Payaso, you hit the nail on the head. I had just logged off and was about to turn off the tube on my way to bed when an ad for tomorrow night's ABC evening news announces, "Should we pay for climber's rescues?" Truth is hikers, hunters, and other outdoorspeople cost society more for rescues, compared to climbers. Let the debate continue... --pindude [ 05-31-2002, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: pindude ]

Quote: ANAM is going to be a very interesting read this year Unfortunately, the current year's accidents will appear in the 2003 ANAM...ANAM usually does not come out until summer, so we'll have to wait a whole year to read the official reports about the current tragedies. My condolences to those of you who knew any of these climbers, or ever have lost partners, friends or family to a climbing or related accident. And my newer found appreciation to all those who participate in rescues, whether you are a formal rescuer or just happen by and commit to help. --pindude [ 05-31-2002, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: pindude ]

Details still coming in... http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/72460_rainier29ww.shtml

Okay, rightful owner now has his gear back--he taped a sign to a tree near where he lost it. He NOW knows about cc.com. Be careful if you use military camo or olive drab colored stuff sacks for your gear... --pindude

Found tonight, just before sunset, someone's li'l bag o' goodies. You and your buddies were obviously long gone. Name the route or wall I found 'em under, describe the goodies, and I'll be glad to return 'em to ya. --Pindude in Spokane

After my last post, I realized Fuhrer Finger, as well as the DC, have been skied. Although there are spots on each of those 2 routes where I know I'd probably be bootin' it. Here's some more info on the web. from Lowell Skoog: http://www.alpenglow.org/ski-history/subjects/R-frame.html From Amar Andalkar's website:http://www.skimountaineer.com/CascadeSki/Rainier/Rainier.html Don't know if BD's Andrew McLean has anything on it on his site, as he does more of the extreme stuff and I generally can't follow his tracks anyway... -pindude

The Kautz also is skied/boarded somewhat regularly, don't first-hand know of other routes on the south side. I've been up Big R several times but have never skied it, and have a jones to glisse it from the top, too. However, I'm not expecting "happy turns." Nils Larsen, one of my ski hero/mentors, skied the Kautz about 10 years ago saying it was "the hardest thing I've ever skied." The Kautz was also the route of the first snowboard descent by Steve & Terri Mathews, et. al., about 10 years ago or so. I would think the Kautz would be in condition before White River campground opens on the other side of the mountain... -pindude

(Cross posted to Central/East WA Route Reports) There are several issues in the Vantage area being worked out by the FCCC. If you climb out at Vantage, help preserve our access by becoming active in the FCCC, with us working as a group rather than as the mavericks we normally are as climbers... As posted on FCCC this morning by Bill Robins: The falcons are nesting again on "Be a Barbie Doll", Middle East Wall. Robert Kent WSFW has closed all of Middle East Wall and the cliffs below to climbing. He thinks that he may open the east half of Middle East wall after the eggs hatch. Robert will re-evaluate things some time in June. If anyone has any questions or concerns, they can call Robert at 509-765-6641. I suggest calling between 7:30 am and 8 am, he is rarely in his office after 8 am. Bill Robins

There are several issues in the Vantage area being worked out by the FCCC. If you climb out at Vantage, help preserve our access by becoming active in the FCCC, with us working as a group rather than as the mavericks we normally are as climbers... As posted on FCCC this morning by Bill Robins: The falcons are nesting again on "Be a Barbie Doll", Middle East Wall. Robert Kent WSFW has closed all of Middle East Wall and the cliffs below to climbing. He thinks that he may open the east half of Middle East wall after the eggs hatch. Robert will re-evaluate things some time in June. If anyone has any questions or concerns, they can call Robert at 509-765-6641. I suggest calling between 7:30 am and 8 am, he is rarely in his office after 8 am. Bill Robins

quote: Originally posted by Paul detrick: where is it at, this is the frist i've heard of it, I often go to the other you are refering to. Paul Dude, scroll up and check out the top post of this thread...

quote: Originally posted by freeclimb9: Pindude,why don't check out the validity of my notes on history before you accuse me of lying. I don't appreciate the disparagement of my integrity.BTW, with regard to my friends at BD, they well know the history, practices, and limitations of the company. Where do you think I get this "shit" anyways? freeclimb,All I'm saying is if you are going to be a historian, you better be using a bibliography. Referring as a source to your "friends at BD" and some conversation you might have had is nothing but hearsay. Give me a real source. Grade: F, until you provide your bibliography. pindude

Originally posted by freeclimb9:"Iceicebaby, watch out for BD first runs...<snip>...Kevlar accessory cord. Once touted as a miracle fixing line. When it was determined that the core fibers would break into dust with repeated cycling (a couple people had to die first), Chouinard put the stuff up at sale prices rather than make a product recall. I'll never forget that move." pindude, in reply to above: What happened to my request to transcend the bullshit? If you are going to be blaming a company for death, and spray it to the world, you'd better be pretty darn sure and post some believable SOURCES to back your shit up. freeclimb9: "...<snip>...I have friends who work at BD...<snip>" Not any more! pindude [ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ] [ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ] [ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ]

quote: Originally posted by specialed: Sad bro, sad. Good thing or I'd have to laugh at your ass when I saw you at the crag. I hope you'd be laffin, coz they'd be stuck right on my fat ass next to an embroidered patch of the Wawona Tunnel and the Valley view! -pindude [ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ]

quote: Originally posted by specialed: This doesn't seem like a fat sellout to you? "Selling" and "sell-out." Two different things, unless you have a different definition of "sell-out." I'd gladly buy up those stickers if I still didn't have so many unused ones dating back to the early 90's. -pindude

quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: No but that is where PP is buried. May he rest in peace. Pinhead - Relax. As far as it being the "same" company I am not familiar with the legalities of the "sale." I wouldn't mind if you filled me in tho. Quote from pinhead <<a suspect and fallacious example.>> It is simply true. Unlike Freeclimb I am reporting something from my direct experience. The representative was a "factory trained" representative form CA. You may think it suspect but your suspicions do not change the facts. I never quoted a mag article. Take it as you will. I would ask, how assuming the example is true, it is fallacious? I guess I should say how is my assertion fallacious or not supported by my example. Sadly they gave me a new blue handled hammer soon its head began to separate too. I myself was once a young climbing goods salesman in the '80s, and still am close to the outdoor retailing world. Then, as today, salespeople--er, customer service people--are "cliniced" by the manufacturer's rep in a large group setting maybe for a couple hours every 6 months or so. They generally are not "factory trained," although if they are, they are lucky dogs. We were never offered Chouinard or BD factory-training, nor am I aware that it was offered to any of the individual employees working in other specialty shops. As far as factory is concerned, maybe a tour if we were in Ventura or SLC after the move, yes, but factory training, no. Suffice to say, the manufacturer spends precious little time teaching salespeople the culture of their company, nor can they afford to. Most of the customer service training of that man/woman or kid on the floor comes from the individual store's management, and the salesperson's own motivation. Regardless, there are always going to be good salespeople and bad salespeople. I think you got a bad one. Your example was not supportive of your argument because you equated the shop's poor salesperson with Yvon, which I think even he would take issue with. You should be able to distinguish between Yvon and his company, and a right- or wrong-headed salesperson on the floor of a retail shop. If I had gotten a second hammer with a separating head, I would have taken that back too and gotten another manufacturer's tool or my money back, which by all rights the store should have done for you. If not, then sometimes it is better to deal directly with the manufacturer to resolve CS issues. Thanks for letting me know you're here, and not really in Bath, England. You got one on me there. I guess Bath, England doesn't equal Federal Way just as that bad salesperson doesn't equal Yvon and his company. For details on the sale, there was a great article by Krakauer appearing in Outside, about when it happened in 1989. I'm sure you'll take great pleasure in noting I can't give you a link to the specific issue and article--Outside online has not archived their mag for issues before 1992. Bottom line, there were 3 lawsuits pending vs. Chouinard Equipment. Each of the 3 had to do with user-error, NOT company error. Yvon took his lawyer's advice to settle each of the 3 pending suits, and separate/protect his real cash cow--Patagonia--by selling majority ownership of Chouinard Equipment. He sold to his employees. Don't know if he still owns a portion, but his employees--with I think Peter Metcalf as head that whole time--have been managing it since, of course having renamed the company Black Diamond. I thought Yvon did a great job of running Chouinard Equipment, and think Metcalf and the employees are doing even better with BD. May PP rest in peace. -pindude

quote: Originally posted by freeclimb9: I don't feel obligated to prove anything to you, pindude. You're skepticism may be warranted, but your manner is crude. For my sake? Don't veil a threat, if that's what that is. FYI, Chouinard never made rope, or cord. They did distribute for Beal. That's probably what's on your hexes. Chouinard Equipment did sell off the kevlar cord back in the day. I don't know what brand cord failed as a fixed line. I never put a brand association with it. But, I challenge you to find anyone who would now reccomend kevlar for a fixed line. Why is that? Hmmmm. Beal's website ( http://www.beal-planet.com) states for Aramide (i.e. kevlar) lines that it "must never be used as fixed line." Why is this statement put on their website? Coincidence? Just one more question for you, pindude, why do you think that BD only sells wired (emphasis on WIRED, not threadable) hexes these days? Love that kevlar! Bring on the libel lawsuits, one and all! "Crude?" How? Because I used words and logic without any neat, nasty words? "Veiling a threat?" Come on. You're projecting now. For the sake of discourse and a good argument, I meant sincerely that I would like you to come up with some solid evidence to back up your statements. I do enjoy a good debate. Exactly what and why are you "challenging?" You completely misunderstand if you think I am going to bat for Kevlar solely because it is still on some of my older hexes which I have kept as museum pieces. Last time I used them? About 10 years ago. I'm fully aware the diamond-C was historically a distributor for Beal rope and cordage. Kevlar was never sold to me or any of my buddies as anything other than cordage to use as slings for our pro. Nobody I ever climbed with has wanted to use Kevlar, or any other 5.5mm static cord for that matter, as fixed line. I recall that once Kevlar was discontinued for improved Gemini cord, climbers bought up the remaining Kevlar as quickly as possible. For hex cordage and V-threads the stuff worked great due to it's stiffer properties: When reaching with a hex I could make higher placements by holding the cord under the hex, and when using it for V-threads didn't usually need to use my ice cleaning tool to snake the cord out thru the second hole. Yes, Kevlar has been improved upon--good for us. Regardless, your argument has turned into a Red Herring. You would be well off to take not only a class in Research, but also Debate. -Pindude "Transcend the bullshit."

quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: Funny thing this thread started with positive comments directed at the old GPIW and related companies. Now it seems as tho the old Chouinard owned company is being slammed and yet the BD defenders think the new company is being slammed. Freeclimb seems to be complaining about the old company. I have virtually no experience with the new BD because of an experience I had with the old company. The old Chouinard owned company, despite the old man's assertions of quality, made some real shit and after knowing it was shit did continue to sell the stuff even after production was discontinued. Eg: the old blue handled piton/ice hammer. I took back a hammer sans head and was told by an employee that they were aware of the problem and going back to wood after their inventory ran out. After hearing that I figured anyone who thinks that YC deserves respect was a total goofball. Imagine selling as an ice tool/piton hammer something you knew had defect that caused it to break. Call me a liar Pindude but in fact it is the truth. It also has nothing to do with the modern Black Diamond. Just adding my rant to the world. While the company may have changed when it went from Chouinard to Black Diamond (and originally was GPIW), and continues to evolve today, it is still the SAME company. At the time of the Chouinard-BD name change, Yvon sold the majority interest to the employees, many of whom are still involved. The only one I called a liar was icebaby, for telling us he lost fingers due to the glove (before he was called on it by Erik, and recanted). Peter, when will you get it? You did the same thing as freeclimb. As I said before, if you are going to spout as "truth" and make claims such as despite "the old man's assertions of quality, (he) made some real shit and after knowing it was shit did continue to sell the stuff even after production was discontinued," then you better back up your claim with more than a suspect and fallacious example. You go on to say that this is true because "I took back a hammer sans head and was told by an employee that they were aware of the problem and going back to wood after their inventory ran out." What employee? Yvon himself or someone else in the Ventura? Or some boarding school-aged newby climber at a shop on your side of the pond who passed himself off to you as a credible representative of Yvon? You, like icebaby, seem to jump to quick conclusions. People with a mind and who think and read posts such as yours will generally treat inflammatory info as suspect unless you can back it up. If you're going to make these types of statements, do your work and give us real evidence. Even a vague reference to Summit, Climbing, R&I, without telling which specific issue, doesn't cut it. No, I'm not going as far as calling you a liar, but without proper proof and reasoning you do also get the following grade: F. pindude "Transcend the Bullshit"

quote: Originally posted by freeclimb9: Shit, that sucks about the "F" grade.With regard to the Kevlar cord recall, I lived it. What would I quote as a bibliographic source? I'm not familiar with the entry format. All this stuff went down in 85, or 86, and I don't take that much gingko biloba to recall expedition details on who got the chop and where. A fixed line failed. Someone died. Kevlar was blamed. I do remember that Great Pacific Iron Works reccommended kevlar cord to me in 85 for slinging hexes, by 87 that was considered to be unwise because of the proven danger, and Chouinard Equipment sold off their remaining kevlar at low, low prices around that same time. Bluewater performed testing on nylon, kevlar and spectra cord around that time, also. The kevlar turned to powder after cycling over a 10mm rotating bar. These test results were published in one of the mags, Summit, R&I, or Climbing. I can't remember which. Believe it, or not. Dude, for your sake, I would like you to come up with some independent citable source, stating it was proven Chouinard/Black Diamond's Kevlar cord was at fault for these supposed deaths. Hell, I've still got my old Chouinard hexes strung with Kevlar, and I remember the Blue Water tests and BD's change from Kevlar to Gemini cord. "Turned to powder?" Doesn't sound to me like an objective scientific term describing the result of a test, and I don't recall myself that was what happened to the Kevlar. I doubt seriously BD is at fault, even if deaths occured. And if deaths did occur, there must be SOMETHING you can provide as a source of that, although it would not necessarily tell us if BD were "at fault." I would take as a source a copy of an archived AP newstory, or a statement from BD themselves. Just saying: you recalled details "...on who got the chop and where. A fixed line failed. Someone died. Kevlar was blamed."--doesn't cut it. To blame death on a company without supporting evidence is potentially libelous. Be careful when you're slinging words. It's unfortunate many aren't on this type of forum. Grade of F still stands. pindude

quote: Originally posted by pindude: Can you absorb this without acting like a baby and respond appropriately? No. And now you're lying, icebaby. If you lost your fingers, just what are you typing with? [ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ]

quote: Originally posted by specialed: Is it me or is the BD catalog looking more and more like J. a Crew catalog with ice tools. And now you can buy your own helmut sticker pack for only $9.95. Sellout? Never seen a J. Crew catalog (who buys that stuff, anyway), but sellout? No way. BD has always made stickers, given out liberally by their folks. Guess now they are offering them as a regular item for order. Following BD and Patagonia catalogs since the 70's, they have always been at the fore of graphic and publishing design. I just got in the mail last Saturday the Spring catalog: it's got the same killer photos, lists of spec's, and even more articles. This is all stuff they've had before (read the reference to the '72 catalog and Doug Robinson's landmark article that began the whole clean climbing revolution). The catalog just seems to be much BIGGER; they've got more product than ever before. Sure beats 8.5 x 11 photocopied paper! pin

quote: Originally posted by IceIceBaby: Is my personal experience is not enough….How the hell you can judge things if not to your experience, my case is not individual and there is some others that did not step forward b/c they just don’t want to make waves, which I could care less Icebaby, your reasoning and argumentative abilities are seriously flawed: (1) You should have called CS. (2) One or two problems with one company's products does not make them bad for all they make and do. The fact that you blew out the seams, as you said, lends credence to the theory you bought the gloves too small. Regardless, if you'd rationally and unemotionally talk with CS I am sure something could be worked out, or maybe you would discover it's something YOU'RE doing wrong. (3) You're just continuing the bull when you say others haven't come forward, yet you don't give examples. Can you absorb this without acting like a baby and respond appropriately? pin

quote: Originally posted by jkrueger: Everything I have from Black Diamond has lived up to my expectations, though I have heard horror stories regarding their customer service... Okay, let's cut through the bullshit on this thread. If you're going to diss a manufacturer or store, you better be able to back it up with sound reasoning or facts (Icebaby, NOT). If you are going to say you have heard "horror stories," you better be giving honest examples, rather than let it hang. pindude [ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ]

quote: Originally posted by IceIceBaby:<snip> I have bought lately the "Dry-Tools" gloves and I pay full retail price $60+Tax. I have used them twice, the gloves just busted at the seams, and all stitch line has frayed thread on them. To me it seems very strange since I did not expected to happen so quickly. I have looked for the label to see if I did something wrong, only to find that a small white label that it was tacked away in the middle of the glove. The label read in subscript letters MADE IN CHINA Just by reading this line I have gotten my answer Instantly. [*]BD couldn't be farthest away from the founder's ideology [*]BD will sale gear with compromised quality and poor control and labor. Anything to make a buck. Even if the have no clue of how to make or create it. This show through their resent brainwashing campaigns and the legacy of making the worst gloves in the industry. [*]I see a huge and alarming quality drop in gear made by BD and I wonder where and when it will stop <snip> Do you feel better now Icebaby? You jump to some pretty broad conclusions with scant evidence to back it up. Yes, obviously you should be calling CS of the store where you bought the gloves, or from BD themselves. Shit like this happens even with the BEST of manufacturers--a mark of maturity and reasonableness would be to deal with the situation appropriately by speaking to someone who could fix the problem rather than rant on this board. And judging by your rant, it's obvious your problems are greater than the gloves. If it happened to you with TWO pair, it sounds to me like possibly you are buying your gloves too small. I have had zero problems with the BD gloves and mitts I have purchased. Still gladly using BD equipment, no matter where it's made, pindude P.S. I am VERY sorry for inadvertantly sending out Icebaby's rant as that Post #4, and subjecting people to have to read it again.