pindude

I am so sorry, Erden. I feel fortunate to have belayed at least a couple of my heroes, and can't imagine what it must have been like for you. Thanks for the excellent, detailed report--your actions and report show great courage and honor. I hear and use the term "zipper" for gear pulling out from the bottom, usually when there wasn't a multi-directional piece(s) placed as the first piece of pro and with the belayer out away from the base and plumb line of the climb--this wasn't the case here and I mention this just to clarify use of the word "zipper" in re. to pro pulling. It's another thing entirely in this situation where the pieces ripped out one-by-one from top. Biners can and do fail--normally I wouldn't expect it to be part of such a tragic chain reaction with so many pieces in. I want to refrain from speculating, but like fixedPin wonder how those pieces pulled. Feeling pretty mortal right now, having by now replaced most of the biners on my rack with wires, having climbed Air Guitar, and knowing another hero dies, here in our back yard. I don't know what you and maybe others will be able to determine further, but I wish you the best Erden. Now we need an appropriate Memorial, in addition to other things, at the Coulee. --Steve in Spokane [ 10-02-2002, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: pindude ]

quote: Originally posted by Thinker: Seems like the injured climber might be trying to be responsible rather than trying to play the system, I like him already. I didn't mean to insinuate irresponsibility on the part of the injured climber in re. to skating out of medical bills. I agree with Ice Girl, that with expenses for going overseas, etc., and factoring in quality of care and risk, it is likely a cheaper proposition for him to receive his health care here. The health care system here in the U.S. certainly has to be played for patients to get the best medical benefit. In re. to paying the costs, hospitals and care-givers will write off care for patients who can't afford it, but it is not ordinarily done up front. I have been out of the game for a few years (I was on the hospital/health administration side, and was a part of writing off many patient's bills), so don't know all the current ins and outs. Whoever the guy is, he hopefully will get good advice on just what course of action to take. --pindude

quote: Originally posted by Thinker: I don't think I saw this posted last week: from here "September 10: A Seattle climber fell about 70 feet on the lower portion of Razorback Ridge on Mt. Stuart, breaking his foot. His partner was able to lower him about 200 feet to the glacier and called CCMR at 6:00pm. Pete, Gene Ellis, Tom Ettinger and Freeman Keller flew to the site where Pete held the Huey's skids toed in to the glacier while the victim was loaded into the helicopter. The victim was flown directly to CWH, arriving after dark. The mission time from lift off at Olds to landing at CWH was 37 minutes!" I heard this guy had no insurance and is considering going to Asia (Thailand?) for surgery. Seems like cost for what he needs is aprox 50% what US hospitals would charge. The info I got is third hand. Anyone have any corroborating info? Thinker, your comment re. no-insurance-needing-surgery stuff is new, but check out this thread started by Freeman on 9/12: Self Rescue/Partner Rescue This will surely spur discussion, but if he needs surgery, he can't be denied care here in the U.S. due to not having insurance. Yes, after his care here he'll be billed by the many different parties, but if he plays the system right he can cut down on the cost here and still get what is likely the best-quality care in the world. --pindude

Not only do thunder cloulds move in quickly from the west, they form quickly on the mountain, and are quite common on hot, summer afternoons. My wife and I climbed it about 5 years ago with a clear blue sky for all but the last pitch of our ascent. We shared the summit with about 2 dozen others, and had to wait to sign the register. By the time we could pen our names in, and in a fairly short period of time, puffy, tall clouds had formed and started to drop hail. Some girl said, "Look! It's snowing!" Me and my big mouth, I said to the group as well as my wife, "That's not snow, that's HAIL--that means cumulonimbus clouds, and that means something else. Let's pack up and get out of here NOW." My wife and I are not that old or slow, but virtually everyone else on the summit (about 90% were younger than us) got their things packed up and raced past us to the first rap. Going last wasn't so bad, because we spent the time and shared raps with--after climbing the Upper Exum with them--2 brothers (one a guide from Bozeman and the other an airline pilot) and their 74-year-old mom. Fortunately for us, the lightning stayed cloud-to-cloud while we were on the mountain, and the real show wasn't until after sunset when we could enjoy it from the Lower Saddle. Mike, glad you and your partners are okay. [ 08-29-2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: pindude ]

Way to go Lambone. This is one thing REI might be good for. So what kind of zipper do you have on the new Bibler? Hopefully something you can trust?

Originally posted by fleblebleb: quote: Huh...? I'd heard the Spokane way was a variant of the smear method, pick a worthy person and everybody smears on that individual.Whoa, haven't seen that one yet... Nice troll, though.

Carolyn, just wondering what your application and what your reasons for inquiry would be...I expect you would be using them for climbing, hiking, or skiing, and to keep your feet warm in freezing temps? Or do you have an issue with sweating and getting your boots wet? They do work well for people, including women, who generally get cold toes and feet in the winter (no pun intended). What I can relate from my own and others' experience: 1. As others have said, use only in freezing temps (of course). 2. There is much personal variability, so you will have to experiment, as mentioned. 3. In addition to bread or plastic grocery bags, Reynolds' Turkey bags work too. I've got a pair of commercially manufactured VBL socks made by Black Diamond. All do the same thing: block moisture. 4. Use a sock combo of (a) lightweight wicking sock next to your skin, (b) the VBL, then © wool or other type of insulating sock outside the VBL. 5. With all the sock layers, beware you don't increase the volume in the boot such that you will cut off circulation and be more cold vs. if you didn't use the VBL's. 6. If it's more of a moisture problem, you can try to use anti-perspirant on your feet in lieu of VBL's, or in combo with. In fact, some friends who do use VBL's automatically use anti-perspirant to keep the moisture down as much as possible. Good luck, pindude

Can't believe all the quick responses to Thinker's original post...in the span I tried to do my work and reply, there are several replies much better reasoned out than my own initial one, including yours, tt. quote: Originally posted by terrible ted: ...The Mountaineer's position is that members adhere to 'leave no trace' backcountry ethics. This means that participants in training courses are taught the essentials of waste management (including the use of blue bags in sensitive areas), and are expected to follow those guidelines, regardless of how they end up in the backcountry...I'm pretty sure that this is way all of the 'backcountry schools' (Alpine Ascents, NOLS, Mazamas, RMI, etc...) deal with the issue - it's the only policy that you can defend as an organization. Is true of all I have seen, including even large, guided parties. quote: On some of the snow field trips which involve large numbers of students in a relatively small area, there are occasions where a portable latrine (i.e. big garbage bag... ) is set up for the entire group. Some lucky soul is invited to haul it down (hopefully by sled...) at the end of the outing... In Spokane in the past, we would pick a person to carry out the "group bag," someone who made themselves worthy of it. We now have each individual carry their own out, but we have a marked or wanded common area where people can do their business. quote: I always prefer the maxim 'go before you go.' The fewer blue bags I have to carry out, the better... Of course, there's been more than a few occasions where I've had a pretty grim look on my face on the last bit of a hike out... On a hot day, it sure can cut short those on-trail conversations with beautiful women.

quote: Originally posted by freeclimb9: IMHO, to make the shit-in-a-bag work, a rebate of the entrance fee should be given for each filled bag. It would be a variation of Yosemite canning, and would keep at least a few marginal climber types in beer money --like an expansion of the Chongo nation's good works. Right on, freeclimb, you should forward this idea to Tom Kimbrough and Renny Jackson. I can see it now, just like the dudes in the Valley are scrounging up aluminum, we'll have another type of dude at the Lower Saddle offering to carry out everyone else's shit bags.

Can't help but weigh in on one of my favorite topics... Payaso, Power Bars without water also help to do the same thing, but I would hate to be around when the effects are wearing off, especially if it was me or my climb partner still trying to make our way off a wall. Better to have the poop tube, blue bag, or whatever system appropriate for the environ and the climb. As far as social resistance goes, this is pure speculation on my part, but those of us in the NW with the Cascades, Coast, and Rockies ranges in our backyards are more intimate with the alpine environment, understand the ramifications if everyone in high-use areas just left their shit all over, and thus are more accepting of carrying it out. In the Cascades with great numbers congegating toward the volcano summits the need for packing out is obvious. It is less obvious when climbing in places where there are less people, such as in the Coast and Rockies ranges, and some of the less-trodden areas of the Cascades. Teaching mountaineering classes here in Spokane, once the problem is explained to students there is an initial revulsion to the whole idea of blue bagging, but they quickly accept the need to pack it out. Hey, it's not a problem if it's double- or triple-bagged, and disposed of immediately (and not forgotten about and left in the pack in hot summer temp's). The Tetons, on the other hand, have visitors from all over the world, and in particular there are traditionally more visitors from the eastern US. Could it be that because of their lack of real mountains (except for maybe the Presidentials, ooh, now I'm going to get it) there is less appreciation about the impacts of climber--and other users'--human waste in an alpine environment? I've also noticed on the trailhead and at basecamps on Shasta the resistance of some people to want to use their kitty-litter system, and perhaps this attitude is due to neophytes first being faced with the proposition. --pindude

Lambone, Enough already! Give BD a call and get to the bottom of it. Next post I wanna see from you is the resolution of this whole drawn-out affair ...I expect them to take care of you and make you a happy camper/horsecock lover/spray daddy/whatever. Cheers --pindude

Right on, Erden, thanks. I knew cc.com would come through. I'd forgotten it was from a web site. Mt. Washington, hmm...obviously your man, philfort. Hard to see detail, but isn't that a Charlet Moser axe? Pretty wicked spike...I can see how it could happen. Hopefully the guy got over this okay and is still climbing. [ 08-22-2002, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: pindude ]

From what I remember the guy turned out OK. The photo looks more morbid than it is.

quote: Originally posted by Thinker on "I'm PISSED" thread: I once saw a slide of a guy who'd run the shaft of his ice axe thru his abdomen, on the front side, left to right, entering high and exiting low. The medic who showed the slide said the guy did it glissading and walked into the ranger station for assistance that way. Talk about 'true grit'. I had a jpeg of this photo when it was circulating on the web a few years ago, but since lost it when a hard drive crashed. Anybody have it that wouldn't mind posting it? It would be perfect for cc.com, for many reasons. I have shown it to students as an example of "what can go wrong"--it's a good waker-upper to start discussions on risk. Photo is of an anonymous poor guy, no face shown, who appears to be laid out on an ER table with a regular 70+ cm mountaineering axe pierced through one side of abdomen, running just under the skin, and the spike sticking OUT of the skin on the other side of the abdomen--seemingly without any vital organs having been skewered. I've tried searching to no avail, although if no one has it readily, there are plenty others here on the board (particularly Trask, Dru) who are much better than I at rooting out e-info. --pindude

quote: Originally posted by glen: Thread-drift.... Anyone have experience getting an Avocet Vertech battery replaced locally? Is it better to suck up and just mail it to Avocet as recommended on their webpage? OK, I'm guilty of contributing to the drift here... Glen, Your short answer is "yes." I had a local jeweler replace my battery but he couldn't calibrate the altimeter/barometer so even though it had a new battery it was about 10,000' off and was worthless! So had to send it to Avocet anyway. As Roger mentioned they also do other maintenance, but Avocet's advice seems to be sound: "You should send your Vertech to the Avocet Service Center for battery replacement. We do not recommend that you replace a Vertech battery yourself or have a jeweler do it for you. After two years use, the Vertech is ready for factory service that will ensure its precision. If the Avocet Service Center finds that the Vertech needs service other than battery replacement, they will notify you." --pindude [ 08-21-2002, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: pindude ]

quote: Originally posted by iain: quote:Originally posted by Lambone: I'm just wondering if Bibler's quality has decreased since they were acuired by Black Diamond. Some other products suffering from BD takeover so far: Scarpa Inverno ("new fit", extended wear will lead to removal of skin and possible tib/fib Fx) Ascension Glue (periodically glops and falls off, they seem to have fixed this and have good customer support for it) Helmet Sticker Pack (bought from Fisher Price, no longer has "my first ice screw" sticker included, for shame) Scarpa--Isn't BD merely a North American wholesaler for what is still an Italian-owned company? Perhaps they have some say in how Scarpa manufactures their boots. But whoa, tib-fib Fx due to nothing more than a boot no less...somebody be doin somethin wrong... Ascension Glue--First I've heard of this, I've had a couple pair Ascension skins and have thought them the best...in part because of their "sticks like a fly to shit" glue. What's up with the glopping thing? Helmet sticker pack--oh, no are all the stickers on my helmet gonna fall off? Lambone, sorry about the zipper, dude, glad it didn't happen on your epic. Zippers are the one piece of gear that are most likely to fail first (other than plastic buckles) on tents, packs, sleeping bags, tech clothing. One way to alleviate it is use some sort of zipper lubricant, like what Aqua-Seal made originally for diving suits, and what is also manufactured by others and used for boats...I think Aqua-Seal's stuff is called "zip-lube"...looked but couldn't find a bottle in my shop. Regardless, I'd be calling BD/Bibler to get some CS. Good luck on it.

quote: Originally posted by allison: ...We've discussed the OP stichmo before at some length... SIRENS! WHISTLES! ALARMS! BIG-TIME THREAD DRIFT! Yes, this HAS all been hashed out before : http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001858 Okay, let's move on into the future...and to get back on thread, long live Aaron Feuerstein and Malden Mills! [ 08-13-2002, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: pindude ]

quote: Originally posted by allison: Seriously, don't be afraid to wash Gore-Tex. The manufacturers recommend it, and you gain a ton of breathabilty back by doing so. Allison, are you trying to pick a fight with me? My 3-year-old G-tex still breathes okay (as much as 3-layer Gore-tex can breathe-hah! ). And it still repels water okay (it beads off). No, I don't wear it downtown, just use it for the mountains when I know I will need it. It would breathe less if the DWR was worn off...which in the wet results in essentially the outer layer being a soaked layer of water, where NO air can get out, and moisture from the skin cannot escape the fabric resulting in a nice little sauna-maker. Yes, with enough dirt, sweat, body oils, etc. the 3-layer fabric will block moisture and air transport too, and will then have to be put through a front-leading, gentle washing machine, but I will NOT wash my G-tex until I absolutely have to. Cheers, pindude

quote: Originally posted by ehmmic: ...I think this is one of my favorite photos and because Marmot used a portion of it for all their hang tags a couple years ago, many others have seen it too. Spectre of the Brocken, Gokyo Ri, Nepal http://www.mountainlight.com/gallery.nepal/aa970pic.html Back on topic...this photo very appropos. Thanks ehmmic, for linking to this one.

quote: Originally posted by Dru: I seem to recall reading a biographical sketch of Beckey which related that in about 1974, Beckey and Rowell were heading for a unclimbed line in the Sierras. Beckey got bad vibes and decided he wanted to turn around. Rowell insisted everything was gonna be Ok and refused to turn around and descend with Fred - instead, he went on to solo the line. Fred was allegedy pissed off by this to the point he never climbed with Rowell again after this! Anybody know if this story is true or not? Don't know about this story specifically, but I heard another one where Fred lost out on an FA he had the chance for (and likely was his idea in the first place), and he got royally pissed off! Can't remember the details, but quite a few years ago he went in to bag a new route somewhere here in the greater PNW, and he was to meet a couple Spokane climbers. On the day they were to meet in the backcountry, he didn't show, so the Spokane boys went and climbed the route anyway. When they arrived back at their basecamp-- and original meeting point--after the ascent, Fred was finally there, and asked straight away if they climbed the route. They told him they had, but Fred had to have known it was his fault. It turned out he had gotten on the wrong trail on the way in...while the Spokane boys were climbing, theycould hear down-valley the characteristic pinging of Fred's coupla pitons binered to his pack, but it was too late for them to do anything about it. [ 08-14-2002, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: pindude ]

quote: Originally posted by Big Wave Dave: If it's of any interest, Rowell did mention one of his favorite photos, or at least favorite portraits, that of Jim Bridwell on the February 1972 (1st winter) ascent of Keeler Needle. Bridwell is shown gnarling at the camera, hanging by goldline and all decked out in pitons and scratchy clothing. Classic portrait which apparently captured Rowells vision at the moment. Big Wave, Thanks for letting us know. I think you meant the honorable Batso, on that Keeler's winter ascent... "Warren Harding on Keeler's Needle" quote: Originally posted by Big Wave Dave: Another one of his favorites was of Leif Patterson reveling in the return to greenery after the 1975 K2 fiasco. "Celebrating return to green grass" Sorry for posting all the pics, but I can't help it...he has SO many. For more, check out Mountain Light, but 2 of my favorites: "High winds on Anye Machin" And maybe THE photo seen by the most people in the world? "Rainbow over Potala Palace, Lhasa" [ 08-13-2002, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: pindude ]

Thanks for the reco for Revivex. I've used the wash-in Nikwax and, before that, Tectron Spray, even used both together, and have been pretty unimpressed--water never did bead off the outer fabric such as it did when garments were new. We'll see what Revivex will do, but my current philosophy is to hold off on washing my DWR-treated garments until it's absolutely necessary, and then only spot treat it. I think putting a garment thru the wash actually takes out much of the DWR, much like washing a rope in a washing machine causes the rope to lose its water-repellancy (although it will remove the dirt, too). I'm not sure ANY revive-type treatment can replace the original DWR treatment on the outer fabric of waterproof/breathable clothing such as is made with Gore-tex. Got a 3-year-old Mtn Hardwear G-tex jacket I still haven't had to run thru the washer yet, but I'll try the Revivex on some other, older stuff that I've already treated unsuccessfully with Nikwax. Cheers, pindude

Although the audio report posted by Iain was pretty detailed, I searched a couple times through the day for a printed article; finally found one here at the SF Chronicle. Condolences to all touched by this. May the Rowell's Mountain Light live on.

quote: Originally posted by Figger Eight: quote:Support Malden Mills: Buy Polartec and Regulator fleece! From your local specialty store! Damn straight. Thanks, Figger!

Thanks Big Wave, for sharing the story. What a shock. I had never met Galen or Barbara personally, but was looking forward to seeing at least him in the future in our area for an outdoor- or photography-related lecture or workshop. Considered by many to be the best outdoor photographer in the world, he was also an original Yose hardman, put up many new routes, advanced clean climbing (one of the first to not use pins on hard Valley aid routes), did an incredible number of world-wide expeditions, and communicated to others the issues and problems of culture and environment from wherever he and Barbara traveled. Together, they were a great team.