pindude

Another, perhaps better, thread (same question, cross-posted to this forum) Laclede Rocks are southwest of Sandpoint, and precisely because they are mostly south-facing, can be hotter than much climbing closer to and around Spokane. How much more does a rack weigh? For sport, Bland's INW Rock Climbs is the book to have, but disregard his BS description of Minnehaha Rocks. He's correct at least in the sense that Minne's climbs are not sport routes, but Minne does have some excellent, abundant bouldering if you're into not flying with a rack. For sport closest to Spokane, Deep Creek is your best bet. Deep Creek is fractured basalt, but good nonetheless. Metaline Falls' limestone also has good sport climbs, but will be hotter since much of it is south-facing. For higher altitude climbing, the granite of Chimney Rock in Idaho's Selkirks is a place to be, but it's all trad and generally requires a full day. Trail in is still very snow-covered (elevation is above 6,000'). There's now a new approach road from east side of Priest Lake, so if you're going, email or PM me and I'll give the new approach road beta. What's your definition of "hot?" Things are fairly cool now (at least temp's are near average), and the forecast calls for temps to not rise much higher, so all the climbing is good. Have fun, Matt, and enjoy your stay around Spokane.

ibarash, Ditto what Marylou, Gary, and Fence Sitter said. The internet can be a great tool, but I'm tired of every person who airs their personal customer service woes to the world. Sometimes it can be legit, and I can understand your frustration and anger, ibarash, but calling Tom a liar and telling him he should fire his Seattle seamster/seamstress is going too far. I'm sure there are many successful orders and happy customers for Nunatak, or they wouldn't be in business, and as a little business, airing this the way you have can hurt much more the little guy, as opposed to a bigger company. At least Tom had the guts to apologize and admit he screwed up, and you do have a few days to get another sleeping bag prior to your trip. Most importantly, it would only be fair if you told Tom you aired this on cc.com, or any other discussion board you might have posted your gripe, and he has a chance to respond to the same audience(s). So, ibarash, have you told Tom you posted here, and did you post this anywhere else?

El Capitan...yes, filmed by Glen Denny in 1969 or prior, but credit must also be given to Fred Padula who did the editing and released the final version in 1978. at each of Cliffhanger, K2, Vertical Limit, pissing off others around us who weren't laughing at the same lines. I have to admit I paid $$ to watch all 3 of those in the theatre. At least the scenery wasn't too bad. Stallone, prior to Cliffhanger's release, said he was going to make a climbing movie "true to climbers." For the movie K2, I can't forget when two groups of climbers were hanging out on their portaledges on the dry, warm North Face of Fairview Dome with their haul bags and all their wall gear...suddenly, they say they've entered the "snow zone": the haul bags, ledges, and massive wall gear are gone, and they're chugging up a snow slope (on Waddington?) sporting plastic boots, axes and other snow/ice gear, full Gore-tex outifits, and big alpine packs! FWIW, I've seriously been asked if I've ever used nitroglycerin in the mountains, and many times, if I have a "bolt gun."

Just found the same question posted in the Newbies forum. Dane, who knows Minne and Spokane climbing at least as well as I (Dane, ya gotta see Minne now without all the paint! ) answered it more succinctly than I: "Dishman Rocks, Cliffs of Sharron, LaClede near Sandpoint, ID, and Chimney Rock and the Selkirks out of Sandpoint can give you some of the best short crag climbing in WA State. "Vantage has some decent climbing but nothing in comparison to the variety of what is closer to Spokane. "While Chimney Rock is a decent walk and a fair drive, with no top ropes, you would be hard pressed to find better alpine granite. "Takes very little to hang a top rope @ Dishman or Minni. A few dbl size slings will easy do it. Most have multiple bolt anchors on the top which you and your dog can easy walk to at either area. Both areas are more than worth the effort. Try Minni first as the routes are generally easier and more varied. Good stuff for beginners can easily be set up. If that gets boring drive 15 minutes across the valley and try Dishman. "

Ha! Fun read. I like the trolls. Timmy, you sure do have some serious issues from your childhood you need to deal with! Thanks for mentioning Spokaloo being a scary place, because we sure don't want any more whacked-out west-siders moving over here, let alone climbing. Seriously, in years past I think some Spokanites have had an inferiority complex when comparing our town to Seattle, but thankfully that's changed for the few I knew it was an issue for, including maybe someone with the Spokesman-Review (superiority shown 1x/mo?, hmm). While lot of us don’t mind visiting the west side too often, most of us are glad to be on the dry side. Whatever, you can make the most of where you live, and I realized upon moving to Spokane from Seattle that this town has at least as much to offer as Seattle albeit in different ways, especially for a climber or anyone who likes the outdoors. Hey west-siders, you‘re welcome to climb here whenever you want—I and others are glad to show you around, hang from some problems, and bend elbows over beers. Bottom line, NewToWA, your best bet for TR’ing beginners (which I assume your cousins are) is first Minnehaha Rocks (10’ from downtown Spokane), and second Post Falls/Q'emlin Park (30’ away). Most climbs don’t need long webbing, but bring a couple 25-footers for those non-90-degree, stepped edges that exist at many crags and for some routes at Minne, like Main Crack or Diagonal. To give the climbing scoop on Spokane: While the great Cascades may be in the Sound's backyard, Spokane has that range to choose from and much more. Yeah, we do have to drive a little farther for weekend alpine trips including to the Cascades, but it's all worth it: we’re closer to ice in SE BC and Banff/Jasper/Yoho, north Idaho, West Montana and Hyalite-Bozeman; alpine climbs throughout the Canadian Rockies from the Icefields Parkway to the Bugs and interior ranges of BC, further south from the North Idaho Selkirks (stellar granite on 3-pitch Chimney Rock 4 hours away, plus a few FAs waiting to be done) to big peaks throughout Idaho and Western Montana on down to Wyoming and the Tetons; cragging trips to Banks Lk (1.5 hrs), Skaha, Vantage, Koocanusa, Blodgett Canyon, much more that is not in guidebooks, from granite to basalt to limestone. Smith is about 7 hrs away normally, and I've done the Valley in 13. In winter, skiing's world-class if you know where to go (especially in the backcountry), and the snow's lighter than in the Cascades. I only got out about 20x this past year, but at least 12 of those days were good powder days, with some at least 2-feet deep. Oh yeah, the original question was about local cragging. Sure glad we have more than an artificial rock at one of the local universities and an exit or two off the freeway... Minnehaha Rocks (10' from downtown) is very much the urban crag, and it does have its city-oriented problems, but is the place if you're in town and you're looking to set up some TR-climbs or want to get some good bouldering in. Problems: Loud (right across Spokane River from Felts Airfield and the local police shooting range), sometimes stinky (rendering plant, which is slated to eventually go away), broken glass which still shows up (use a rope tarp and don't go barefoot, but glass is continually being cleaned up). Positives: We did massive cleanup there over the past 2 summer seasons, picking up garbage and blasting off all the graffiti. Minne has more than 250 routes from boulders to 80' climbs, from 5.0 to 5.13 on sound, tip-friendly granite. The Verm calls the bouldering the best in the state. This little crag is exactly what the Seattle area is missing. And if you like to mountain bike, Beacon Hill, just above the rocks of Minne, has lots of great riding from fairly easy to hard-core technical with steep drops (lots of awesome mtn biking around Spokane, as I know there is around the Sound). Other noteworthy crags are Dishman Rocks (15' from downtown) which has good granite south on the other side of the river from Minne, and is for intermediate-to-advanced climbers as almost all routes are in the 5.10 to 5.13 range. Some dirtier granite but in more of an alpine setting are the Rocks of Sharon behind Krell Hill (aka Tower Mountain, 30' drive + a 15’ hike). Other cragging is on Deep Creek's basalt (20'), Post Falls, Idaho granite (30' from Spokane), Tum Tum's granite (30'), Metaline Falls’ (90') and Marcus’ and China Bend’s (2 hrs) limestone, Banks Lake’s chossy granite (90+ '), and LaClede, Idaho’s granite, (90'). A few others, too, which are either just being developed or are too small to mention, including several in town. Best overall guide for the area is Bland's [/i] INW Rockclimbs[/i], but if you're going to climb at Minne buy for $3 the old Loomis guide—[/i]Guide to Rockclimbing in the Spokane area[/i]—at Mountain Gear for ease of finding routes and to know the history. Best shops are Mountain Gear (the big locally-owned shop)and Mountain Goat Outfitters (the little locally-owned shop), and there's a good REI. The local gym is excellent: Wild Walls located downtown. Bottom line, if you’re a climber, Spokane --Steve Reynolds

In case you missed it: NPR audio: Trade Shows May Boycott Utah over Wilderness Issue

troll a.k.a. trolling (def.): The act of posting a message in a newsgroup that is obviously exaggerating something on a particular topic, hoping to trick a newbie into posting a follow-up article that points out the mistake. See Also: flame bait , lurk. No, lummox, this is not a troll--no tricks or exaggerations, and posted for actual discussion. After all, this is a discussion board. I was expecting as much, but was hoping for at least some substantive discussion. No worries, I don't take this stuff personally. --pindude

Interesting proposal--a great idea IMHO--by Karl Baba, as posted on rc.com: Source The opinions of the first ascent party have always been given serious consideration by the climbing community. When it comes to adding bolted anchors or additional protection bolts to routes, we ask the first ascent party's opinion. Some first ascents were put up in a bold style and were intended to stay that way. Other first ascents were put up in a bold style because the party ran out of time or bolts. Some first ascensionists have changed their outlook on protection with the advent of sport climbing or because of family responsibilities, and others feel the same way that they did when they put up the route. One problem we have as a climbing community is that we really don’t know what the feelings of many first ascensionists are. We tend to assume they all sit around wearing wool underwear with a sense of indigence that people are putting up well protected routes in modern times. Maybe yes, maybe no. I have talked to a number of first ascenders who say that they intend to go back to some of their dangerous routes and add anchors or protection bolts so more people could enjoy the routes. On the other hand, I’m sure just many first ascenders would like their routes left alone. They want their bold statement to stand untouched. I just saw the movie about Yosemite Climbing history called Vertical Frontier. It’s a good history. It was shocking to see how many of the pioneers of our sport died in the past few years. It’s important to record the views of those who forged our climbing heritage before they pass from the scene. I have a proposal that I’m putting out there in case somebody has the inspiration, energy, and webspace to take action on it. It is to offer climbers who put up new routes a place to register their stories, preferences and intentions regarding their creations. Volunteers could contact veteran first ascenders from the past and record their views for the consideration of future climbing communities. The first ascenders themselves could post information about their creations. They could ask that their routes remain unchanged. They could relate how the route came about. They could give their view of local ethics. They could stipulate that they think adding anchors or bolts in certain places would be appropriate. They could advocate retrobolting by anyone, or established locals, or no one. They could state an intention to work on the route themselves. They could put the evolution of their route into the hands of future climbers based on local consensus. We don't know how climbing will change in the next 300 years, but those future generations won't understand each area's historical ethics and culture unless we them tell. Harding would have something different to say than Robbins. Bachar might have a different view than Kauk. Rockclimbing.com has an extensive worldwide route database that can be edited and expanded by users. A workable registry can be worked into the database with the support of the owners of Rockclimbing.com I am not proposing a tool to promote retrobolting or to ensure routes remain unchanged. I am merely offering a tool to promote communication and self regulation by the climbing community. It’s better for everyone if we can minimize bolt wars and stress among each other. There should still be climbers 300 years from now enjoying the routes that were put up in the past 60 years. They won’t know what the first ascenders intended for those routes unless we ask. If the popularity of climbing sustains, the pressure to change routes will increase. Let’s do something to help those future generations of climbers come to agreement. I intend to post this on a number of internet forums but am posting it here first to await feedback since I cited rockclimbing.com as a place where a first ascender registry might be located. Wouldn't want to make assumptions. Feedback? Conerns? Support? Peace Karl Baba Edit: Rockclimbing.com is now behind us. I'm posting this info gradually on other forums to create a period of public comment. This is a community project, not "my baby" I repeat, this is not a dating service for retrobolters but a record of individual histories and view that come together to make our collective climbing awareness. The future will undoubtedly bring change though, and consideration of future route change/protection should be a part of the dialog. Second Edit: After reading many comments during this "Public Comment Period" it is obvious that concerns about retrobolting are foremost in people's minds, and the advantages of knowing the FA party's opinion about the any potential route changes in the future are not particularly valued. Folks seem to want the FA party's take on history and the local area, and some interesting stories about their routes. Personally, it seems to me like parents telling the school, please don't give our teenage daughter any sex education! It will just make her want to go get drilled! It is true, though, that information has consequences. Obscure Routes that get "supertopoed" skyrocket in popularlity and big wall routes that get "ASCA'ed" are morelikely to become trade routes. But this isn't about me so... I think it would be wise to get first ascender's general comments under the listing of their name, and anecdotes about their specific routes can go under the "FA notes" for each route if they care to share stories. No enouragement should be given to comment on bolting issues particular to the route and hopefully each general area can have a link to a local ethics summary, reprinted with permission if possible, from the local guidebook or paraphrased by a local. No blanket "will or intent about my routes in general" should be asked for either. I wouldn't prohibit talk of bolting or chopping cause I think free speech is critical, but the introduction to the registry can shape how it is used. If we don't make it about bolting, it won't tend to be. I think the concerns expressed over retrobolting issues should be respected. The issues and problems that arise from bolting issues still be with us though. Perhaps a better understanding of the past will help. Even if it doesn't, we will have a better history than just the polished accounts of the sponsored folks detailing their cutting edge climbs. Peace Karl Last edited by karlbaba on Sun Jun 01, 2003 5:42 pm; edited 2 times in total

could you explain why the fall factor was tremendous? Seems there was a lot of rope out already. Iain, Poor choice of words on my part. It would be better to say impact force--not fall factor--was tremendous. On a practical level, Gator during his drop tests with 100 kilos duplicated the breaking of an open biner on a #2 Camalot at the same location it was believed Göran placed his. Quick Fall Factor estimate on the #2 Camalot was about 25' length of fall / 55' of rope out = 0.45, not insignificant. I don't know how to calculate impact force, so will leave it to you guys. Peter Puget in a related thread linked to this PMI article at the ASCA website, What heavy climbers need to know. There's a table near the bottom showing "Relationship between Impact Forces, Fall Factors, and Masses," but it shows higher Fall Factors that are closer to one or above. Maybe someone can extrapolate or calculate on their own... --Steve Reynolds

I wasn't part of the investigation team, but provided some of the older-style Camalots to test (that destroyed #2 left in the crack was originally mine--is it out yet?) and in return was able to see the comprehensive report Gator originally wrote. Rope was dynamic. Biner in question was thoroughly tested and was not defective. While rare, biners do break, especially when open...Goran weighed about 100 kilos and the fall factor was tremendous. While the crack is indeed pretty darn vertical, it widens up at the top such that a rope-end carabiner, when used with a short, stiff "dogbone"-type sport draw, *can* be allowed to lay in the crack sideways such that the gate stays open...the crack was the right size around the #2 Camalot for this to happen. Older style double-stemmed Camalots such as what Göran used are not pre-slung, and the manufacturer recommended from the beginning of their use in the 80s that they should be clipped with a quickdraw when clipping in the rope. As the Air Guitar crack widens at the top, placements can be made further away from the face and back in the crack, or they can walk back further, and are more likely to do so with a short, stiff draw.

Darn right. It was all in the thread here on cc.com, for those that could wade through the chaff. But someone had to make sense of it all. Cheers to you, Mike.

Received today the latest issue of R&I (#126, July 15), and see that Gator's investigation and analysis is now officially published. Gator, thanks for all the hard work you put in—and especially for your thorough, objective investigation and sound analysis. The article appearing in R&I I expect will be the same to appear in ANAM when it’s available later this summer, and obviously is a synopsis of your much more comprehensive study. Erden, we knew before you did everything and more a climbing partner and friend could—may you find peace on your journeys, and good luck on summiting Denali. Rest in Peace, Göran. ---------------- As appearing in Rock and Ice, #126: Pro Pulled, Air Guitar (5.10a), Frenchman Coulee, Washington Source: Mike Gauthier, edited by Jed Williamson On September 30, 2002, the famed adventurer Göran Kropp died from a fall while rock climbing. He was leading Air Guitar, a 65-foot 5.10a crack that requires precise nut and cam placements. Kropp was near the top of the route when he fell some 60 feet to a rock ledge. Though wearing a helmet, he sustained fatal head injuries. During the morning and early afternoon that day, Kropp and his partner took turns leading sport routes. After climbing four or five bolted aretes, Kropp took advantage of an opportunity to toprope a crack, Pony Keg (5.10a). Although Kropp looked solid in the crack he told his partner that he found the climb challenging. Kropp then decided to lead Air Guitar. Kropp started up the route, placing, in order, a small nut, two micro cams, and three small to medium cams. He fell near the top of the climb, the crux, shortly after placing a three-inch cam. That cam pulled, and the wire-gate carabiner clipped to the rope on the next cam broke, causing Kropp to fall to the ledge. Analysis: This accident resulted from a series of combined incidents. Kropp was relatively inexperienced at placing natural gear and, though a powerful athlete, was at his lead limit. The fact that the top cam pulled indicates that it was either placed incorrectly or walked to an insecure position, which is possible since he clipped all of his protection with short, stiff quickdraws. Another scenario is that Kropp dislodged the piece by himself by kicking it with his foot as he climbed past it. Regardless, experienced natural-gear leaders are able to get solid protection at or near the same place Kropp's cam pulled. Subsequent studies of the broken carabiner revealed that the wire gate was not distressed; in other words the carabiner appears to have failed because its gate was open. While a gate-closed carabiner failure is rare, carabiners with their gates open lose as much as two-thirds of their strength, making failure in a fall a real possibility. What caused the gate to open? It could have become wedged or constricted inside the crack because its short quickdraw would not let it lie outside the crack. Jammed in the crack, the carabiner could have had its gate pinned open. The short, stiff quickdraw could also have let the carabiner rotate into a cross-loading orientation, another extremely weak orientation. Leading Air Guitar pushed Kropp’s crack-climbing abilities that day. Air Guitar and other 5.10a basalt column cracks like it are steep and require technical crack-climbing skills. Mastering good crack-climbing skills takes extensive practice and training, which Kropp did not have. Air Guitar also requires the precise placement of natural protection. Learning how to properly size and place rock protection before attempting routes with hazardous fall exposure is important. Short quickdraws are best suited for sport climbing. When using natural protection, many climbers prefer slightly longer and more flexible quickdraws or slings, which provide for a smoother rope movement and decrease the chance of protection being displaced. Sidebar: Safety Tips Get in the habit of placing two pieces of protection just below the crux moves, and anywhere your protection is suspect. Doubling up also gives you an extra measure of safety in the event one piece fails in a fall. Also, when you place gear in a crack, be sure its quickdraw or sling is long enough to let the rope-end track outside of the crack. This will keep the carabiner from wedging in the crack, and having its strength compromised.

All good feedback. My main thing is having a coiled rope that doesn't need restacking. I never learned how to stack over my neck or how to coil a Butterfly so I didn't have to reflake--I'll have to try Retro's finger method with a Butterfly, and Wallstein's and Fern's neck coiling methods.

Wallstein, You're on... So you are young! Nah, it doesn't mean incompetence...some of us elders, as we get older, use guile and deceit to keep up, and try to keep young 'uns in their place. Seems like you may very well have an improvement on my French Coil. What's a dog ear? Even though I'm a wordsmith, I have to see things "hands-on" to fully understand them. I'll have to make the drive from the east side for a BBQ or Pub Club just to see how you coil, or better yet, with my new job maybe I'll be able to break away and spend at least a week in the Valley this late summer/early fall. Sounds like you've got the better job: 6 months in the Valley...I can only imagine right now. I learned a lot of my climbing there, but only on 1-2 week-long trips. In 6 months, I'm sure you'll be a climbing monster before you're done, and have lots of fodder for great stories. Have fun. --Steve Reynolds

why the especially women? what makes our small hands more special than men's small hands? I don't have this problem. Just unwind the tie-off and unfold the butterfly and lay it on the ground. You must be suck. Glad you found a system that works. I must be suck? <Big sigh> I try to be gracious, and this is where it gets me. Seriously, I merely meant women's hands tend to run smaller than men's. I'd like to see how you do your coiling over your neck such that it feeds off without tangling--that's something I could learn. I think I'll never understand women... But I'm not going to ask advice from Trask, at least not yet.

I don't mean any disrespect to Wallstein's climbing abilities or his footwork, whatever they may be. It was obvious he didn't read the original description through very carefully, in addition to never having experienced this coil (and having a special love for the French). 'Sokay, if you're indeed young Wallstein, there's lots of time for you. Cheers, pindude

actually maybe only small people do it this way no way I can stack a whole coil into one of my hands. don't forget to put your hood up first if you are coiling a wet rope over your neck ...brrrr.... Yeah, the French Coil is real hard to do for those with small hands, especially women. One way to try and alleviate it is to push the stack back along the wrist as you're nearing the end of the coil, but it's still sometimes a lot of weight to hold up for smaller people. My experience with neck-stacking is that I always have to reflake the rope after uncoiling.

Thanks, Jason, glad to know I'm not alone in the PNW as far as using this coil. I was starting to wonder. I find I don't have tangles if I'm real careful when feeding the rope onto the palm of my hand when coiling. Thanks for the copyright info...I threw that in at the end for whatever it's worth. --Steve

Wallstein, you're a young pup, aren't you? It ain't the butterfly...ends are not looped--please re-read the description. One of the biggest advantages of the French Coil is that you don't have to restack it. When you coil over the neck, you DO have to restack it if you want your rope to feed cleanly to a lead climber. It might be faster to coil over your neck when you initially coil, but it defeats the whole purpose of the French Coil, which is to have a rope that doesn't have to be restacked when you're ready to climb again. So the French Coil done on the palm of your hand is indeed faster overall than coiling over your neck, which is not "neat" in my experience when you undo that coil and are ready to lead off again.

OK, everyone learns the Butterfly and Mountaineers Coils, but both of these are limited in the name of speed and efficiency, and especially for lead or alpine climbing. The butterfly is a great coil for a rope used for top-roping only, and the only time I use the mountie coil is as an end-man on glaciers. In 1992, I was taught the French Coil by an experienced Czech climber, and it changed my life (at least in regard to dealing with ropes): no more restacking, less twists, and a lot less time wasted. I've used it almost exclusively since, and am surprised I haven't come across a description or reference of it anywhere, in books or on the net. Sorry I don't have diagrams, but below is a description of how to tie the coil. So, do any of you use it? If so, where did you hear about it and what do you think of it? For those that don't use it, what do you use for a coil? And yeah, it could be renamed because if gives freedom, but I'm sticking with French Coil. ------------- No More Restacking the Rope: The French Coil Now you can save valuable time at the belay. Better than the Mountaineer's Coil or even the Butterfly Coil is the French Coil: it adds no twists to the rope, you can carry it on your back and it feeds like a charm right off the coil--without having to flake it out or stack it--when you uncoil your lead or glacier ropes. You know the Butterfly. Instead of going from rope-middle to the 2 ends, or from the ends to the middle, you'll start at one end of the rope and work toward the other. After you've fed through at least two fully stretched double-armed lengths of one end of the rope, you can start coiling. Hold one hand--your stacking hand--out with palm up and elbow bent at about 90 degrees. Like the Mountaineer's Coil, bring successive coils to rest on top of your stacking hand by using your working hand to (a) grab successive lengths of the rope with a fully outstretched arm, (b) stack each successive length or loop toward the heel of your stacking hand, working eventually out to the fingertips (this is important--it's harder to do if you have smaller hands but it will build up those tendons) and © let the hanging ends twist on themselves if they want to do so (unlike the Mountaineer's Coil)--this avoids adding twists to your precious rope, and it's normal for the rope-bottom of each successive loop to have a twist. When you finally get to the other end of the rope, make sure the length of the tail end matches the length of the beginning end. Then make a couple wraps and tie off as if you would with a Butterfly Coil. Now the next time you unpack the rope, reverse the finishing tie-off and wrap, place the rope flat on the ground one side up or the other, and if you have done it right, the rope will magically feed off without messy tangles! (copyright S. Reynolds)

Shasta rivals our local volcanos as an excellent ski or board trip back down. The dog/standard route is Avalanche Gulch from Bunny Flats. Last year, my group had a great ride down the Hotlum-Wintun route on the east side...I don't know all the routes on Shasta, but have to highly recommend that one over Avalanche Gulch and other south- and east-side routes as far as a ski or board descent. Do a search on cc.com, or telemarktips.com for that matter, and you'll find lots more beta. Skiing there should be good from now through the next 2 months. Have fun.

Info at the obvious place: www.avalung.com So there's at least 3 people walking around on this earth (lives saved by the Avalung) who have real good reason to say bullshit to your bullshit. Not according to one guy who was saved: "He said it was not at all difficult to keep the mouthpiece in his mouth." So, the short record so far is 3 people being saved by the Avalung in real life, and I'm not aware of anyone being caught in an avalanche with an Avalung that did NOT survive (even though about 1/3 of avy deaths are due to trauma, 2/3 due to suffocation). I understand it is standard gear for some heli-ski operations, but most of my dirtbag BC ski-board buddies don't have them yet--due in part to normal $120 price tag but also due to lack of awareness of the what the device can do. I believe "the jury is still out" on the Avalung for many people, and time will tell. While I'll still do my damndest to stay off of avy terrain, I am now wearing one in addition to carrying beacon-probe-shovel. Happy turns.

If I've got this right, it'd be a lot more than chocks that climber has. Overall, that's pretty familiar real estate--east face of Chimney Rock. Dane, I believe it's "Free Friends." Isn't that the layback crux, or at least the start of it? If I remember the story right, you gave up 3 Friends because your second--Kop--didn't know how to remove them! Who got the friends? And who's the climber?! Incidentally, I was just up on Roothaan yesterday, on skis, looking at the west side of Chimney until black clouds moved in and it started snowing sideways. There's at least 5-6' of snow still up there at 7,000'. Drove in on the Hunt Creek to Horton Ridge road route, where snow blocked us about 3 miles away from the old Horton Ridge lookout site. USFS has posted along the road that vehicle access from the E. Priest Lake Rd. to Horton Ridge is now supposed to be from Indian Creek Campground, due to logging. We decided not to double back from the Hunt Creek Road, and were able to go around the logging trucks parked on the road, which were idled for the day. --Steve in Spokane

Good idea. I can see having a forum on books--would it be appropriate to roll it into web pages forum, or have it completely separate? Completely separate may be best . OK, idea seconded. Does the motion pass?

Mammut rep, How about one of the Spokane-CDA stores? How soon?