JayB

Ordered some WB-400 pants about a month ago. The service was terrific - I entered an incorrect measurement and called to correct it and the response was instantaneous. You can monitor the progress of your order in real-time on the website, and when I got the pants in the mail a week after ordering them, fit was perfect and the quality was top-notch. Anyone who doesn't have soft-shell stuff yet should definitely check them out - fully custom garbs for quite a bit less money than off the shelf stuff. Definite

Kelsey just came out with a "Technical Slot Canyon" Guide to the Colorado Plateau that you should be able to peruse for ideas that will get you away from most of the crowds. Freeclimb clearly knows what's up as far as where to go. All of the areas he mentioned (that I've been to) are amazing. Also - March is cold as all hell there. There have been a couple of threads about this in the past that you can also peruse for ideas and photos.

Did the Snow Creek over Asgard to whatever the hell that trailhead is traverse through the Enchantments. Downhill MTBing by the light of the tikka back to the Snow Creek parking was the shiznit.

The PPM analogy comes in because there are a number of costs - the time and expense of filing claims, taxes, bureaucracy, lost income, diminshed production, etc - that act like the economic equivalent of friction when one is replacing property that has been destroyed. Such expenses mean that when a country has to expend capital to replace material goods that have been destroyed, the nation in question always suffers a permanent loss of wealth that can never be recovered. But you were right. It would have been more correct to say "analogous to" rather than "the equivalent of."

This read's like a chapter from Bastiat's Click Economic Fallacies <-- Book Expenditures relating to the accident may go up, but the theory that the said expenditures represent a net economic plus for the country is entirely false. If this premise were true, then the best way to generate everlasting prosperity would be to destroy everything and rebuild it over an over again. The amount of wealth in and property would go down with every iteration, and the pool of capital necessary to repair the damage would shrink drastically every time - but somehow we'd all be better off. This becomes more clear when you use your own finances in the place of the economy. Let's say everything you own is destroyed in a tornado which also hospitalizes you for several months, and you have to use your savings to cover the losses (assume that they are adequate to do so). Once you cash in your savings and replenish all of your property are you any better off? No. In fact, you are worse off by the exactly the amount of property and wages that you lost. The savings that you spent to replace what was destroyed are no longer available to invest in anything that will generate income for you, the amount of property you own has not increased, and if you are forced to cover such losses again you'll be in much worse shape. The same is true for the economy. In reality no one insures themselves, but the analogy holds because the funds expended to cover the loss of property, wages, etc simply replace what was lost and in no way add to the net productive capacity of the nation. There is no net increase in jobs or wealth that results when accumulated capital is expended to replace such losses. The expenditures do lead to more work for those directly involved in replacing the property - but the net increase in property or wealth on a national level is zilch, and the said funds will not be available to invest in a new factory, more efficient machinery, additional infrastructure to further expedite the movement of goods and services, etc, etc, etc. In economics, as in thermodynamics, there is no free lunch, and increased prosperity through destruction of property, health, etc is the economic equivalent of the perpetual motion machine.

I think the merits of the DB are real enough, but the eight has become second nature, I can inspect it at a glance, and it is at least as safe as the DB so I don't expect I'll ever make the conversion.

Granite Gear's Ice Sparring gloves are pretty good in this respect. Sturdy leather palms, removable liner, good balance between warmth and dexterity with a tilt towards dexterity.

Or selectively edited

5'10" and 170-175 equilibrium weight. I've been able to hone my physique to perfection by using the "Eat Whatever the Hell You Can Get Your Hands On That's Cheap" diet coupled with the "Workout at Random Intervals When You Have the Time" program.

For most of us driving is a necessity, not an activity which we have a passion for such that we deliberately organize a significant part of our life around it. Your analogy would be more apt if you were talking about amateur race-car drivers that dedicate most of their spare money and time working on cars for races that they spend many of their weekends engaged in. I would bet that when one of their fellow enthusiasts dies on the track it affects some of them quite a bit more than when someone plows a minivan into a median on their way to the grocery store. In any event, no one ever said that feeling even a hint of sorrow for the dead or vague feelings of sympathy for those left behind is required of anyone. Some people will feel these emotions in response to a given accident, some people won’t. If you couldn't give a shit - that's fine, but I hardly think it's necessary or proper for anyone to make a specific point of saying so. For me most of the time my response to tragic news depends on how much I know about the accident and how the deceased's passing has affected those left behind. If all I read is so and so died on this peak on this day – then I am usually pretty indifferent. If there’s quite a bit of detail about their life, their family, and/or a narrative by a wife, best-friend, etc talking about what kind of a person they were, how the deceased absence has affected them, and the like then that’s a different story. I’m not sure how you can presume to tell people which of their feelings are authentic or not, or that what are most likely sincere expressions of condolences are nothing more than inauthentic posturing (though some may well be) without a bit more interaction and engagement than postings over the internet can permit, let alone mock or dismiss them because they expressed feelings that you didn’t happen to share.

and this would explain why, say, tv people are paid the way they are relative to teachers? education has nothing to do with free market economics. if conservatives ever figure out that education and similar fields should not be held accountable for not generating direct profits, the school system may have a chance. Who is talking about profits? Market forces play a much more limited role in public sector performance than private enterprises, but public enterprises are not completely insulated from them either. Take a look at tertiary education, in which institutions have to compete for students who have a choice as to which institution they attend - envy of the world. Compare that to the remainder of our education system. And market forces have nothing to do with the shortage of qualified teachers in the sciences? The bottom line is that if there is a prolonged shortage of workers in a given field, employers offer higher pay to attract more applicants. Incentives do influence behavior.

Yup - but most people have a hard enough time expressing their feelings about relatively mundane stuff, and I think that they are truly at a loss when comfronted with the prospect of trying to say something that will do justice to an event like what seems to be a premature death. I think that most people find that anything that they can possibly think of saying would be inadequate next to the pain that the grieving are feeling, and revert to the MCTFAF so that at the very least their feelings will not go unexpressed and remain unknown to the objects of their sympathy. I think most people that read the MCTFAFs from strangers get this and appreciate the gesture, but would probably expect more from close friends and family members.

the certain 'behaviors' of a certain culture in mourning is a "social construct" but the universal need for mourning is not. it is innate. if it weren't we would not see this in completely isolated societies. That's why I referred to the rules themselves rather than the behaviors that they attempt to address. I think we are in agreement on this point.

This is a bit of a reach but - I think that many people, myself included - whip out the MCTFAF on the off chance that one of the FAF's will come accross the message while trying to better understand what happened, communicate something to about the accident, or whatever. The odds of that happening are admittedly low in this case, but for most people I know sympathetic words from strangers do, in fact make a difference and are worth adding for that reason even if the grieving may never see them. Judging by here comments it seems like the folks that bothered to post the C's on rc.com may have helped the wife a bit. Ditto for the C's to Kropp's FAF's, etc.

Since I already know Erik and think that he's a good guy my opinion of him doesn't have much to do with his take on this particular issue. As far as regarding/disregarding social morays is in general is concerned, all rules that govern human behavior are "social constructs," so that doesn't seem like a very useful criterion to use when deciding which ones to honor and which ones to disregard. Social constructs that have their origin in consideration for others - such as acknowledging that something must be painful for them and expressing sympathy for them even if you do not share their pain -should be granted a certain measure of respect for many reasons, foremost amongst them being the fact that they are one of the bases upon which a minimally functional society rests. Social constructs that have their origin elsewhere - such as eating crab with a special fork, not wearing white after Labor day et al can be disregarded by virtually everyone without society being any worse of for it, and can thus be tossed at will IMO.

Off topic - but this is a universal norm. Different cultures have different ways of dealing with the grief caused by the death of a loved one, but the grief itself is hardly a "Western" construct absent from other cultures. The notion that there are entire cultures out there who observe the death of those closest to them with nothing more than the serene indifference that witnessing a leaf fall to the ground would generate within them is truly the Western construct, if there ever was one.

Obviously there is no comparison between the grief one feels at the passing of a friend or family member and the death of a stranger thousands of miles away. However, when I learn about the death of a climber, no matter how far away - it always strikes a bit closer to home for a couple of reasons. The first is the sense of community created by a shared passion. The second is the fact that I can easily think back to a number of frightening situations that I have survived that might have turned out differently. I think of the grief that must be overwhelming their friends and family after such an accident and can very easily imagine my family and friends going through the same thing - and the prospect of that makes me shudder. I can also think of the aspirations, plans, and dreams of routes, mountains, vistas enjoyed in the company of trusted ropemates that died with them, and in some ways feel the loss as though it was my own. Though it will never even come close to grief generated by someone withing my own circle of friends and loved ones, I can't deny that when I hear about an accident like this I do, in some small way, pity the dead and grieve for those that they have left behind.

Supply and demand. My mom was a teacher, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for the job that they do, and would like to see them paid more - but the fact of the matter is that there is a vast supply of people out there who are both in posession of the necessary skill set and willing to work for the pay that the districts are offering, the result being that wages remain relatively low. One thing that I've never understood about teacher's pay scales is that there is no difference between what a Physics teacher makes and what a Home-Ec teacher makes. Virtually anyone can teach kids how to bake brownies and balance a checkbook, while it takes a considerable amount of dedication and sacrifice to complete a degree on physics, chemistry, or the other hard sciences. Yet there is no difference in their pay. That, plus the fact that graduates in physics and chemistry have significantly more, and higher paying career options available to them equals a permanent shortage scarcity of qualified instructors in the field. Yet I'd be willing to bet quite a bit of money that were a district to pay science teachers more than other teachers with comparable levels of experience the Union would go ballistic...

As I said above, the only reason that I posted this accident was in the hopes that others - not necessarily experienced climbers who know what they are doing - might be inspired to increase either their knowledge relating to or their vigilance about climbing safely. Anchors failing isn't Twilight Zone stuff - it does happen from time to time. Had this been an "Act of God" type accident where climbers were killed by massive rockfall on a trade-route or some other such accident where the only lesson one can take away is "Shit Happens" I wouldn't have bothered to post it. .

Bit more info "I'm the wife of David Kellogg, one of the climbers that was killed Sunday at Tahquitz....I want to thank everyone for their condolences and thoughts. Special thanks to those who helped with the rescue - I know that it will hard to cope with the aftermath of such a tragic accident. Just a little info on Dave........Dave was an experienced climber - he'd been rockclimbing for 13 years - started climbing when he was at Humboldt State.......proud papa of 2 year old Nicolas, who is learning to climb himself. Dave loved climbing - it was his passion in life besides his son. Dave and I traveled in SE Asia for 3 months in 2001 so he could climb in Thailand (loved Krabi!), Vietnam, Singapore and Malaysia. He will be sorely missed by family and friends - I miss him so much already....... The Press-Enterprise article switched the ages of Dave, 32 and Kelly, 41. I've spoken to Kenny Klein - the sheriff's dept actually transposed the ages. Thanks again everyone, Florabel" "First my condolences to the relatives friends and witnesses. For the rest of us, all that can be done at this point is try to learn from what happened. Not always simple as often the true facts are impossible to determine. The Step never was really a "trade route" and was mis-graded for many years and always had a little mystery about it. The mentioned rockfall was between The Step and Fools Rush and I don't think it affected the route, although things can change instantly. I haven't done it for a few years, but I think it was after the last major rockfall. From Bad Traverse Ledge you do a short pitch to an uncomfortable but solid belay at a tree. You need to do this to allow enough rope for the next long pitch. The next pitch goes up to a strenuous but very well protected move over a small roof, (5.8 on some of the older route descriptions but closer to 10b.c) There's another 10a crux after that and it is a little devious, not at all obvious how it goes. There aren't any good places to belay between the two. There is a good belay after the second crux. It's a rope stretcher with a 50m rope from the tree and I don't think you could get there with a 60m from Bad Traverse Ledge. The next pitch goes up a right facing dihedral, (seem to remember it being rather wide) to "The Step" near its top. From there you can go right and finish with Super Pooper or left to Fools Rush. It would be easy to get lost here and end up on Price of Fear, (a Sorensen 10c) or run out face near the top. This area has some loose blocks and flakes also. The following comments need to be taken only as general observations that have been getting people in trouble in recent years and may have no relevance to this event, but should be kept in mind. Tahquitz is most properly characterized as an alpine area. It's not a sport crag or even a completely clean trad area like parts of the Valley, Suicide, Needles etc. Most climbs involve at least some spots where you must deal with less than ideal rock. You need to climb here with an alpine mind set, (minus the speed requirements). Test every thing. Even if you've done the route multiple times. Place pro to account for possibly faulty rock, not just your ability to climb it. Even the easier trade routes involve significant route finding problems. Even in the Valley it's often possible to walk out in the meadows and scope out a route. That doesn't happen here often. If you are unsure, back off, ask for help, or go the most obvious easiest way. If you miss a pitch, it will be there later. Better than getting to a dead end with no good anchors. Making up your own variations at the top can lead to real trouble. If there's lots of lichen, there's a reason, and it's not that no one has thought of going that way before. 60M ropes have lead to many unnecessary epics here. Most of the routes here were established with 120 ft ropes and a bowline on a coil. That means that the traditional pitch lengths are around 100 ft. (120-140 ft or so with later routes done with 150s). Run out your 60M to the end and you could find yourself in a bit of a predicament with no decent anchors. When you get to a comfortable belay with a good anchor, use it. Even if it was only a 100 ft pitch. Again this is not meant to even imply that any of these things are what happened in this incident. I climb there almost every weekend and kind of see it as my backyard playground. I just don't want to see anyone get hurt there. _________________ The Gray Tradster"

One could also argue that dependence upon either direct government funding or tariff walls erected by the government could prove to be far more homogenizing and stiffling than a market driven media sector. Whether it be the government or a corporation, the content that receives funding will be profoundly influenced by the perogatives of those institutions doing the funding. At least in a market economy you have multiple institutions with multiple perogatives providing the resources necessary to produce content. In a system in which the government is the primary clearinghouse through which movies, films, and plays must pass the potential for self-interested censorship is considerably higher. Cultural protectionism and excessive government influence in the media sector has actually contributed to the moribund and generally unmarketable condition of cultural output in many countries, in France in particular. Anyone familiar with history will recognize the fact that isolation from the influences of other cultures, rather than exposure to them, is what leads to cultural sterility and stagnation. This, like every other tarriff/subsidy scheme in history will backfire and actually exacerbate the very problem it seeks to remedy.

Photo gallery seems to be working now. Nice pics Layton! I think that the Teutonic Nihilists are onto you and are hacking your system from their secret control center in the short bus. Be afraid. Be very afraid. They believe in nothing.

How's your leg doing?

From RC.com "Two San Diego climbers died from what appeared to be a Factor 2 fall just right of the White Maiden Buttress on Tahquitz Rock today. The belayer had the anchor pieces attached to him and there were some pieces still on the rope. The climbers were still tied together. The two fell down several pitches (estimated about 3-4) over Fool's Rush. Our best guess is that they were climbing The Step, judging from where they fell from, where their packs were, and what we learned about the ability of one of the climbers. They sustained massive injuries and shattered their helmets. THANK YOU VERY MUCH to everyone who helped in this horrible situation. The climbers at the rock reacted quickly but, unfortunately nothing could be done. Everyone showed amazing strength and compassion in the situation. Thank you also to the RMRU, the Riverside Sheriff, and the CDF, all of whom responded to the accident. We don't know anything about these climbers except their names and ages, but I am sure they were well known and respected. Our condolences to the families of both men. If you have any questions about the accident, Art and I witnessed the men falling and were present through the rescue efforts in the hours before the RMRU responded. Again, condolences to the families and feel free to PM or e-mail us with questions. Meg (roseraie) and Art (artm)" "I was on The Trough yesterday when the climers fell. I am trying to get as much info as possible. I was leading my boyfriend up his first multipitch climb. He heard someone swearing a lot and then heard the fall. He heard the pieces fall out and a large moaning sound when the guy landed. I found someone on the radio to call 911 after I heard someone yelling for 911 and for a helicopter. I'm sure I was not the only one to call. We spoke with someone this morning who said that they fell from the White Maiden's Walkway (5.4). That sounded odd and I assumed that they were novice climbers. Can you tell me their names and ages? I thought maybe it was 2 guys that we met on the way in who seemed to have very little gear with them and who's car was still in the parking lot at about 7pm. Thanks, Leslie" I have only heard of three instances of total anchor failure in the past 8 years or so. One involved three climbers in the Sandias who were found at the base of the route with around three pieces of distressed gear on the rope - if I remember correctly it appears that they were simulclimbing when the leader fell and took his ropemates with him. There was also a couple from CO who died as a result of total anchor failure in Yosemite a couple of years ago. I remember one more that occured when the leader fell on a sunrotted multipitch ice-climb in CO, and the first screw and the two-screw anchor ripped-out during the fall. As long as there are climbers there will be deadly accidents, but fatalities resulting from anchor failure seem especially preventable. Hopefully news of this tragedy will inspire others to be vigilant about both learning and practicing solid anchor construction, getting in a bomber piece ASAP after leaving the belay, and putting in pro a bit more frequently at the start of a climb to account for the higher fall factors generated as a result of having so little rope out. Easy principles to understand that are just as easy to get complacent about. If you are either a friend of or are related to the deceased climbers you have my sincere condolences.

My ass you didnt puke inside, it looked like a can of chef boyardee exploded on the step by the side doors. haha. As for the nialist, TUNN DOON DA MUZAK OR VE VILL CUT OFF YO JHONSON, VILE VERING VOMANS PANTIES AND JUMING THROO FIRE DA!