JayB

I was thinking about this area earlier this week. There should be a ton of stuff in to the climber's right of the Coleman Glacier (pretty much what the photo is showing...), and I bet the falls that are about 1-2 miles in on the trail are in also. Bring on the Stampede!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can they convert digital images to slides at those online photo sites like ofoto.com? Converting digital pics to slides might be the way to go for presentations if you want to preserve image quality.

Great Evening. It was good to meet some new folks, and the slide shows that I saw were killer. Major props to mattp, mvs, Polish Bob, David Parker, Forrest_M, wayne1112 and Alex for the sharing those slides. I wish I could have stayed around for Fern's show and all of the rest but whatever that beer was that they were serving absolutely put me under and I had to go sleep it off in my truck. Trying to sleep away the spins in my truck near the ave - another proud moment

I am pretty much in agreement with Matt that more civility and less anonymity would have a positive effect on this site, and chucK/Al_Pine with regards to the fact that communicating solely through the written word tends to generate far more misunderstandings than discussions in person ever would. If you have issues with the environment on the site you can always start by adopting the changes that you want to see on your own first and hope that you'll inspire others to do the same. I've always attempted to be conduct myself online in the manner that I would offline, but I'd be lying if I said that I live up to that standard all of the time.

Nice Job. Now someone just needs to set up a spotting scope to observe the 46 separate parties that are sure to descend on that sucker like the mongol hordes this coming weekend.

"Baghdad Everywhere I've traveled recently in Iraq I've run into Americans, ranging from generals down to privates, who ask perplexedly; What are we Americans supposed to be doing here? Are we going to take over this place and stay here forever? Judging by reports received here from the United States, this perplexity of Americans in Iraq is matching by the perplexity of Americans at home. We have got into this Iraqi job without understanding what we were tackling or why. Imagine how incredulous we would have been if anybody had told us---even so recently as five years ago---that hundreds of thousands of Americans would be camped in the middle of Iraq in 2003, completely responsible for the conduct and welfare of approximately 20,000,000 Iraqis? How does it happened that even some of our topmost officials in Iraq admit that they don't know what they are doing here? The answer can be expressed, I believe, in one word---secrecy. . . .' This is actually an excerpt from an article originally printed in the the Saturday Evening Post in January, 1946 in which I simply changed the words from Berlin to Baghdad, Iraq to Germany, Roosevel to Bush, etc. The original text is below: "January 26, 1946 How We Botched the German Occupation By Demaree Bess Berlin Everywhere I've traveled recently in Germany I've run into Americans, ranging from generals down to privates, who ask perplexedly; What are we Americans supposed to be doing here? Are we going to take over this place and stay here forever? Judging by reports received here from the United States, this perplexity of Americans in Germany is matching by the perplexity of Americans at home. We have got into this German job without understanding what we were tackling or why. Imagine how incredulous we would have been if anybody had told us---even so recently as five years ago---that hundreds of thousands of Americans would be camped in the middle of Europe in 1946, completely responsible for the conduct and welfare of approximately 20,000,000 Germans? How does it happened that even some of our topmost officials in Germany admit that they don't know what they are doing here? The answer can be expressed, I believe, in one word---secrecy. . . ."

This gonna happen?

Greg: Just a couple of points here as I'm about to head off to dinner. The relative successes of Northern European peoples vis-a-vis the rest of the world is a relatively recent development, and there are a number of civiliaztions that have laid claim to the mantle of superiority relative to their counterparts - which your claim would have to address. Just think of the Chinese, the Hindus, the Persians, the Egyptians, and more recently the empires centered around the Mediterranean sea and the Arabian Pinensula such as the Romans, the Abbasids, the Umayaads, and the Ottomans . All of these people achieved a level of technical excellence, political organization, and millitary capability beyond the comprehension, let alone the reach, of the Northern Europeans - who were still barbarians in every sense of the world at the time. If they were inherently superior by virtue of their genes, this superiority should have manifested itself as soon as they became genetically distinct from other peoples - how can the theory of their superiority be reconciled with the fact that they were scarcely beyond a stone age existence while all of the other civilizations flourished around them? There are other points that I would like to touch on, especially the importance of the Arabs in preserving and expanding upon the Greco-Roman intellectual heritage during the Middle Ages, the European recovery of which served as the intellectual scaffolding upon which the Renaissance and the Enlightenment were erected. More later...

I thought all of this petroleum based stuff was too new school and poserish for you Perkins. I expected you to be scoffing at such things and touting the virtues of hides waterproofed with bearfat and beeswax!

Agreed on most of those things needing to happen before folks start to feel more positive about the direction of the economy.

Employment is a lagging indicator. Plug Econ101 into Google and learn why. Or maybe PLC will chime in and give everyone a brief once over on the topic. But I agree that the stats don't mean a whole lot to anyone who has been out of a job for a while and is still looking for one.

Dragontail as of last weekend. No ice visible in any of the gullies. There is ice forming on the sides of the water flowing down Asgard Pass, and ice just starting to form on the Lakes at the top of the pass though if you are looking to gauge recent temps up there. Need to fill the gullies with some snow and qet some serious melt-freeze action going before it will be worth making the hike to check things out IMO.-

Did you take a look at the NW Couloir route (I think that's the name) - the route between the Stuart Glacier Couloir and the N. Ridge - while you were in the vicinity of the Gendarme? Doubt I'm up for it but others may be.

Maybe Forrest will chime in and clarify - but that didn't seem to be his message. For me - it's the unwitting part. I agree that when you tie in and set off on a route that you have to accept that things may well be sketchier than you had anticipated- but when that happens it makes sense to recognize that you’re in a bit deeper than you had planned and change your behavior/mindset accordingly. Most of the time it’s obvious when you need to do this, other times you find yourself in deep shit and see, in hindsight, a number of mistakes, bad decisions, or self-deceptions that led you right into the avoidable epic that you are suffering through.

Which bolts were bad on Monkey Space? That would definitely suck - but it seems like trying to reverse moves and get back to the ledge (never done 'em, just watched) would be almost as bad. Anyhow - definitely not a place for bad bolts. Speaking of exposure - how often does that 12c that ascends the arete to the right of the base of the pioneer route get done? Made me nauseous just looking at it. As far as the original question is concerned - I can't remember the names but there were a couple of routes at Shelf that combined inadequate cleaning, horrible bolt-position(contrived+ground/ledge fall potential) with those *$@#ing homemade bedframe hangers drilled with holes that have about 1mm of clearance available for inserting the nose of the carabiner. Nothing terribly horrifying there, but the routes would have been much more pleasant if the folks that bolted them had taken a bit more time and done a better job of it.

It seems clear that by accidental risk he is not talking about accidents per se - such as freak rockfall - but risk that one inadvertently assumes by oversights (forgetting the jacket), inattention to detail, self-deception, etc., etc., etc., all of which lead to the unwitting assumption of more risk than one had originally bargained for when setting out on the climb.

Canadian Swimsuit models.

Entered it all into a spreadsheet a couple of months ago. I'm going to take low res-photos of the stuff with the digital camera, burn it onto a few CD's, and keep both the pics on the spreadsheet in a couple of places that won't be toasted if the rest of my stuff burns....

Derek Hersey? Cool with me if you want to keep that private though...

Yes, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were drafted in 1960s by Abby Hoffman and Stokely Carmichael... Did you actually read the entire paper you cited? This was a 1993 paper that made the startling revelations that certain chemicals affect children differently than adults and that there was a concomittant need to develop better models to evaluate both the said toxicity and exposure levels. Earthshaking stuff. As far as human health in general is concerned, and in the US in particular, the principal threats to human health do not arise from chronic exposure to trace amounts of agrichemicals that have been in use for decades without any epidemiological alarm bells going off - it's a result of the choices that they themselves are making. Heart disease, diabetes, lung cancer, strokes, etc, etc, etc are the primary killers in this society, and they are all the result of the manner in which people choose to live their own lives. Getting kids off the couch and limiting their Ben & Jerry's intake is where anyone concerned about children's present and future health should focus their energies IMO. And, as far as DDT is concerned. I'm glad that raptors have structurally sound eggs once again, but on the flip side...literally tens of millions of people have been died as a result of the surge in malaria after the DDT ban in equatorial zones, so it doesn't seem to me that the ban or withholding aid to countries that make use of it has been a uniformly positive event for all concerned. But I am even boring myself now, so I will have to bid this thread adieu....

Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- irrespective of how collossally off-base, wrong-headed, myopic, ill-considered, unfounded, and un-capitalized they happen to be. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- evidence? substantiation? i did not think so." I was joking here. If I was seriously trying to delineate the specific defects in your thinking the list would have been much, much longer.*(See footnote below) *Disclaimer. This comment made in jest. Such comments are also referred to as "jokes." Except for the uncapitalized part. First letter after a period. It's quick, it's easy, it's grammatically correct- and it'll impress the folks at the commune.* *....

"so why do you continually fling this hippy shit toward me when you have no idea what kind of person i am? i am not a hippy, nor have ever sung kumbayah, etc .." Because it seems to bother you so much. Try some Transcendental Meditation, Regression Therapy, or better yet some aromatherapy coupled with some astral tunes while chanting and you'll feel much better. (Poke. Poke.) Seriously though, your politics do hearken back to a certain decade that began roughly 40 years ago, and the tenor of your comments pertaining to that time suggest that you view the era as a halcyonic period, at the very least. Are you sure you haven't sung Kumbaya - at least once? Surely you must have had to stifle the urge to humm along least once or twice while it was playing in the background at the local PLC or Whole Foods Market... As far as organic foods are concerned, I have actually read quite a few studies about the matter and after doing so concluded that they are not, on the whole, better for you and certainly aren't worth paying extra for. When someone shows me a credible study that passes muster with the AMA, or the NSF, or at the very least has appropriate controls then I may change my dining habits accordingly. I have a B.S. in Biochemistry and a minor in Chemistry and have more than a passing familiarity with the manner in which chemicals affect key metabolic processes and cellular events, and am no stranger to sorting out good data from bad as I read and asses the validity of data in peer-reviewed scientific papers nearly every day as part of my job. What are your qualifications in this matter?

where did i say i was member of a youth movement? great grand parent? i don't think so. not even a grand parent, for my kids won't have children before they are capable of assuming them. they were raised responsibly and use contraception. you really have no clue. you seem very spiteful and ossified before your time. your put down of elderlies is pathetic. Being spiteful in general and making spiteful comments about you in particular are two very different things, kemosabe. As far as elderlies are concerned, there is only one "elderly" that I enjoy putting down from time to time, and I think you can guess who that is. Before this gets out of hand though, I should say that the only reasons I flip you so much shit - other than being my own ideological equivalent to antimatter - is that you dish a fair amount of it out yourself and seem tough enought to take it. Although I disagree with almost literally everything that you have to say about every topic under the Sun in all circumstances, I have to respect your willingness to duke it out in here and act as an advocate for those things that you believe in - irrespective of how collossally off-base, wrong-headed, myopic, ill-considered, unfounded, and un-capitalized they happen to be. Let me know if I ever step over the line and I will gladly limit myself to no more than one snide comment, slight, slam, or jibe per day. Have an organic soy-beer on me.

I've noticed the same thing about people that stay involved for 5-7 years being in it for life. I think that one factor that contributes to their continued interest is that by this time most have diversified their climbing pursuits well beyond those that they dedicated most of their time to when they first started out. I have also noticed the correlation between strictly sport-climbing and bouldering and dropping out of climbing altogether, and I think that at least part of this has to do with the fact that most people improve very rapidly when they take up either. Eventually everyone plateaus, though, and if one's primary focus is on succeeding on ever-more difficult climbs frustration and dissilusionment are bound to take over when there is no improvement in this arena, or worse yet - a regression takes over and you find yourself hanging on lines that you used to cruise. I have also found that people that have loved getting out in the mountains all of their lives, and approached climbing as an extension of that tend to stick with climbing in much higher percentages than people who lack this background and get into the sport strictly for the technical challenge or thrills.