JayB

Did you take a look at the NW Couloir route (I think that's the name) - the route between the Stuart Glacier Couloir and the N. Ridge - while you were in the vicinity of the Gendarme? Doubt I'm up for it but others may be.

Maybe Forrest will chime in and clarify - but that didn't seem to be his message. For me - it's the unwitting part. I agree that when you tie in and set off on a route that you have to accept that things may well be sketchier than you had anticipated- but when that happens it makes sense to recognize that you’re in a bit deeper than you had planned and change your behavior/mindset accordingly. Most of the time it’s obvious when you need to do this, other times you find yourself in deep shit and see, in hindsight, a number of mistakes, bad decisions, or self-deceptions that led you right into the avoidable epic that you are suffering through.

Which bolts were bad on Monkey Space? That would definitely suck - but it seems like trying to reverse moves and get back to the ledge (never done 'em, just watched) would be almost as bad. Anyhow - definitely not a place for bad bolts. Speaking of exposure - how often does that 12c that ascends the arete to the right of the base of the pioneer route get done? Made me nauseous just looking at it. As far as the original question is concerned - I can't remember the names but there were a couple of routes at Shelf that combined inadequate cleaning, horrible bolt-position(contrived+ground/ledge fall potential) with those *$@#ing homemade bedframe hangers drilled with holes that have about 1mm of clearance available for inserting the nose of the carabiner. Nothing terribly horrifying there, but the routes would have been much more pleasant if the folks that bolted them had taken a bit more time and done a better job of it.

It seems clear that by accidental risk he is not talking about accidents per se - such as freak rockfall - but risk that one inadvertently assumes by oversights (forgetting the jacket), inattention to detail, self-deception, etc., etc., etc., all of which lead to the unwitting assumption of more risk than one had originally bargained for when setting out on the climb.

Canadian Swimsuit models.

Entered it all into a spreadsheet a couple of months ago. I'm going to take low res-photos of the stuff with the digital camera, burn it onto a few CD's, and keep both the pics on the spreadsheet in a couple of places that won't be toasted if the rest of my stuff burns....

Derek Hersey? Cool with me if you want to keep that private though...

Yes, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were drafted in 1960s by Abby Hoffman and Stokely Carmichael... Did you actually read the entire paper you cited? This was a 1993 paper that made the startling revelations that certain chemicals affect children differently than adults and that there was a concomittant need to develop better models to evaluate both the said toxicity and exposure levels. Earthshaking stuff. As far as human health in general is concerned, and in the US in particular, the principal threats to human health do not arise from chronic exposure to trace amounts of agrichemicals that have been in use for decades without any epidemiological alarm bells going off - it's a result of the choices that they themselves are making. Heart disease, diabetes, lung cancer, strokes, etc, etc, etc are the primary killers in this society, and they are all the result of the manner in which people choose to live their own lives. Getting kids off the couch and limiting their Ben & Jerry's intake is where anyone concerned about children's present and future health should focus their energies IMO. And, as far as DDT is concerned. I'm glad that raptors have structurally sound eggs once again, but on the flip side...literally tens of millions of people have been died as a result of the surge in malaria after the DDT ban in equatorial zones, so it doesn't seem to me that the ban or withholding aid to countries that make use of it has been a uniformly positive event for all concerned. But I am even boring myself now, so I will have to bid this thread adieu....

Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- irrespective of how collossally off-base, wrong-headed, myopic, ill-considered, unfounded, and un-capitalized they happen to be. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- evidence? substantiation? i did not think so." I was joking here. If I was seriously trying to delineate the specific defects in your thinking the list would have been much, much longer.*(See footnote below) *Disclaimer. This comment made in jest. Such comments are also referred to as "jokes." Except for the uncapitalized part. First letter after a period. It's quick, it's easy, it's grammatically correct- and it'll impress the folks at the commune.* *....

"so why do you continually fling this hippy shit toward me when you have no idea what kind of person i am? i am not a hippy, nor have ever sung kumbayah, etc .." Because it seems to bother you so much. Try some Transcendental Meditation, Regression Therapy, or better yet some aromatherapy coupled with some astral tunes while chanting and you'll feel much better. (Poke. Poke.) Seriously though, your politics do hearken back to a certain decade that began roughly 40 years ago, and the tenor of your comments pertaining to that time suggest that you view the era as a halcyonic period, at the very least. Are you sure you haven't sung Kumbaya - at least once? Surely you must have had to stifle the urge to humm along least once or twice while it was playing in the background at the local PLC or Whole Foods Market... As far as organic foods are concerned, I have actually read quite a few studies about the matter and after doing so concluded that they are not, on the whole, better for you and certainly aren't worth paying extra for. When someone shows me a credible study that passes muster with the AMA, or the NSF, or at the very least has appropriate controls then I may change my dining habits accordingly. I have a B.S. in Biochemistry and a minor in Chemistry and have more than a passing familiarity with the manner in which chemicals affect key metabolic processes and cellular events, and am no stranger to sorting out good data from bad as I read and asses the validity of data in peer-reviewed scientific papers nearly every day as part of my job. What are your qualifications in this matter?

where did i say i was member of a youth movement? great grand parent? i don't think so. not even a grand parent, for my kids won't have children before they are capable of assuming them. they were raised responsibly and use contraception. you really have no clue. you seem very spiteful and ossified before your time. your put down of elderlies is pathetic. Being spiteful in general and making spiteful comments about you in particular are two very different things, kemosabe. As far as elderlies are concerned, there is only one "elderly" that I enjoy putting down from time to time, and I think you can guess who that is. Before this gets out of hand though, I should say that the only reasons I flip you so much shit - other than being my own ideological equivalent to antimatter - is that you dish a fair amount of it out yourself and seem tough enought to take it. Although I disagree with almost literally everything that you have to say about every topic under the Sun in all circumstances, I have to respect your willingness to duke it out in here and act as an advocate for those things that you believe in - irrespective of how collossally off-base, wrong-headed, myopic, ill-considered, unfounded, and un-capitalized they happen to be. Let me know if I ever step over the line and I will gladly limit myself to no more than one snide comment, slight, slam, or jibe per day. Have an organic soy-beer on me.

I've noticed the same thing about people that stay involved for 5-7 years being in it for life. I think that one factor that contributes to their continued interest is that by this time most have diversified their climbing pursuits well beyond those that they dedicated most of their time to when they first started out. I have also noticed the correlation between strictly sport-climbing and bouldering and dropping out of climbing altogether, and I think that at least part of this has to do with the fact that most people improve very rapidly when they take up either. Eventually everyone plateaus, though, and if one's primary focus is on succeeding on ever-more difficult climbs frustration and dissilusionment are bound to take over when there is no improvement in this arena, or worse yet - a regression takes over and you find yourself hanging on lines that you used to cruise. I have also found that people that have loved getting out in the mountains all of their lives, and approached climbing as an extension of that tend to stick with climbing in much higher percentages than people who lack this background and get into the sport strictly for the technical challenge or thrills.

The funniest thing is someone who could literally be a great-grandparent still self-identifying as a member of a Youth Movement of any sort. Don't trust anyone over -what - 90?! Bwahahahahah

No really. Did the Woodstock Retrospective come out on DVD with new interactive features? Is Geritol coming out with a new liquid formulation that nostalgic older folks can soak into psychelic looking sheets of blotter paper?

Spill it. What news? Peter, Paul, and Mary getting back together? David Crosby publish a new book of poetry that he'll read aloud at your house? New Jerry Garcia talking doll with lifelike "Dragon Chasing" action and soot smudged beard issued by Hasbro? Not sure what else could have you feeling so giddy about "The News."

What news? You happy about the bombings in Iraq? "Boy all of those dead Iraqi civilians should really hurt Bush's poll numbers! Yippee!" Or are you referring to some other news? Were you at a March in DC recently? Allan Johnson, a high school English teacher and debate coach from Fairfax, Va., held a sign saying "U.S. Troops Out of Iraq. Bring Them Home Now!" at Saturday's "End the Occupation" rally in Washington. In fact, though, Johnson isn't sure he wants to bring the troops home now, or to end the American occupation of Iraq. At least, not yet. "We've made a giant mess," said Johnson, a handsome man who wore his long snowy hair in a ponytail and had a sparkling stud in one ear. "I would hate for the Bush administration to halfway fix things and then leave, and then blame the Iraqis if things go wrong. Once you go to somebody's house and break all the windows, don't you owe them new windows?" Why, then, was he marching at an End the Occupation rally? "I don't agree with all the people here, believe you me," he said. But his own sign? He glanced at it, startled, and explained that someone had handed it to him. "I didn't even look at it," he said. "I was just waving it."

j_b said "It will be funny if the Republicans are hip all of a sudden and the left is suddenly me, you and our high school English teachers lecturing about the triumph of the 60s." Give us a Kumbayah while you are at it homey...

Bring it on Bob. I'd definitely be interested My vote is for Stone Gardens.

For exhibit A of this phenomenon see above post(er).

From Salon.com Dazed and confused about Iraq ANSWER supports "the Iraqi anti-colonial resistance." Military Families Against the War wants to bring their loved ones home safely. Others who rallied Saturday just hate Bush. Can this antiwar movement be saved Article

....can you leave me out of it? Cough. Cough.

Damn dude. Nice effort. Stuart looked nasty when we were leaving the Enchantments.

Yup - melt out easily and get blown over, and get buried failrly quickly in melting snow. If you are in a situation where you will actually depend on the wands, these are not what you want.

I've come across quite a few people who start climbing, get passionate about it, then quit just as abruptly as they began. I have also met a number of people who have just returned to the sport after giving it up for quite a while - some for as long as twenty years. I have always wanted to ask the folks who quit all of a sudden what it was that caused them to do so. Injuries, a near-death experience, death of a partner, marrying somone who forced them to choose between continuing climbing and continuing their marriage, the arrival of children, not enough time - are some of the reasons that I have heard of second hand, but I have never actually managed to get ahold of an ex-climber and grill them about what convinced them to hang it up for good. I'm especially curious about the folks that develop a passionate interest in climbing and quit for no apparent reason. Some seem to have the recreational equivalent of ADD, and skip from one-pasttime to the next, but most seem to quit for reasons that are not easily discerned by a casual observer. I'm also interested in what compelled ex-climbers to begin climbing again after being away for many years, and if they came back because they were missing what they left behind or were seeking out something new. Since I started climbing in '96 I have taken three or four multi-month breaks from climbing, all as a result of injuries. I took 8-months off in en effort to fully recover from tendonitis that I had been aggravating for a couple of years without a break long enough to to any real healing. I was fed up with the constant pain and decided to try kick it once and for all. I followed that up with a couple of 2-3 month breaks while recovering from torn ligaments in my knees that I sustained while skiing. I spent most of the 8-months away peak bagging and fly-fishing, and actually sort of enjoyed the break from technical climbing as it forced me to indulge a bit more heavily in activities that I had been neglecting in an attempt to step-up my climbing. After I came back the primary difference in my climbing was that I more or less gave up sport climbing for a couple of years - both because I found that I was more interested in long, moderate trad and alpine routes, and because I no longer had the specific strength necessary to climb sport routes that I had once enjoyed, and found myself getting a bit frustrated after getting shut down on routes that I had once climbed as warm-ups. I would have been able to console myself on routes in the sub-10 range, but there just weren't many of those around at my favorite sport area (Shelf Road) so I could never get away from the fact that my abilities in this arena had gone down hill in a big way. Another injury-induced vacation from rock-climbing got me into ice-climbing, which happened mainly because all of the trad-routes were frozen over, my knee was too messed up to ski, and I was looking for some more variety while climbing. The variety has been a good thing, as doing everything (except aid climbing) and a lifelong love of the outdoors has kept me interested and given me an outlet no matter what kind of shape I am in. Anyway - I have been wondering if anyone else on this board or that reads this board has taken time away from climbing. What caused you to quit, how long were you away, and what brought you back. Is your focus any different than it used to be? Posters/lurkers - let's hear it.

Finally checked out the Enchantments on one of the most beautiful days of the year. Left SC parking lot at 7:00, got back to the Stuart Colchuck Trailhead at 5:30, picked up the stashed mountain bike and rode back to the car by the light of the Tikka.