DCramer

Forget stars - Create a 1 thru 4 system with increments every .1! Think of a GPA. That route is a 3.2! No, it's a 3.3! To really be value added a guidebook must be fodder for debate! Seriously, in line with your viewpoint perhaps just a notation indicating that a specific route is recomended will suffice.

11. Lookout Point - Index

I am not very familiar with Camalots but are you sure #3 Camalots would work? (A does not equal B in the quote above) Let me know what you guys decide to do and let me suggest that all this energy could be put to great use reviving old routes, trail maintenance, fixed gear maintenance and impressing land managers with climber volunteerism.

I received an email about this thread so I decided I'd chime in. If I wasn't slammed at work I probably would have earlier. The true story behind GMD is that when we cleaned it (and it was a big job) big cams weren't really available. We bolted it so that people would have protection. If big cams are common now, I can care less what happens to the bolts. I can remember when you often came upon fixed bongs and large angles then after Friends, they became less common. Thin pins became less common after thin pro improved. One thing I can say is that with a rack of big cams GMD would in fact be an easier climb. The leader would be in complete control of the fall potential. That is not true with the East Monkee Face. Trotter gets the kudos because it was bold. One thing to consider is that once traffic dips below a certain floor the climb will be reclaimed by vegetation and cease to be climbable. By the way has anyone here ever climbed Black Widow at Midnight? The second pitch of City Park? Wasn't GMD put up about 18 years ago?

I'll take the pins. PM Sent

I am not so sure that I agree with the claims made above. Take for example the three items on the list. The third is strictly alleged. I am not convinced that it even occurred, however, if the bolts were placed, I am fairly certain that the FA party had nothing to do with them. The other two examples are not new at all - I believe that they happened in the 1990’s. (BCB may have been very early 2000’s) Virtually all of the cases I know where a member of a FA party retro-bolted a route have been the work of one person. For many years this person’s primary residence has been outside the US. I know of no retro-bolting activity by him over the last several years. I am fairly confident that the same person was responsible for the JG rap anchor but honestly cannot say for certain. I seem to remember him being worried that people were lowering off the old anchor which was certainly dangerous. Since this person’s activity has been non-existent for several years and since FA party retro–bolting activity was pretty much limited to him in the first place, I do not think that the claims (in bold) are reasonable. Simply put the trend as stated does not exist. Of the routes I have put up at Index I can remember retro bolting only one (Pins replaced by bolts) and it was not at the Lower Wall. Again I wonder why these anchors seem to attract attention when the bolts to the right at the start barely generate a comment.

If it's a fat man gathering I'll invite myself...besides I can hand off the big cams.

I must confess I cringed too when I first saw it but after seeing so many trip reports that listed JP p1 “short” as a climb I decided that it was probably a good thing. Back before larger cams were common starting up the flared flake/corner was fairly committing and the new bolt location reduced that commitment. Now you can just slip a cam in and there is no practical difference. This horse does seem to be dead!

Here is a copy of a topo from the 1975 Index guide. The topo is a bit inaccurate but I have marked “here” where the original "short" anchor is clearly shown. What the topo does not show is that there is a no hands stance at the anchor. The original anchor was a pin at your feet and a bolt about knee level. The new one is higher and to the left. This location is more visible. This is not a case of “moderate” climbers wanting to add an anchor to a “hard” climb. The question is should “moderate’ climbers loose a climb because an entire route was freed. Colt45 – I think you would be forced to reach the same conclusion a variety of crags. For example: the Cookie Cliff in Yosemite. Phil – Weak troll the anchors on NA Overhang haven’t moved as far back I can remember. Rudy -

Assuming that they used 120' ropes they could have reached the belay above the roof. I bet they were using 150'. In any event a review of some photos of the FA shows that the leader had a beefy haul/rap line tied to his harness. The bolts I mentioned are not on Stern Farmer but are located just to the right. They lead up to a horizontal break. Has this gone free?

So is it clear just what route the bolts are on? With regard to the Index Centerfold: Pitch one as first climbed began up an easy although often dirty groove/corner and then moved left passing three bolts. Sometime after the FA one of the FA team cleaned off a cleaner bolt protected variation to just to the left of the groove. Comparing bolt counts between early ascents of this pitch and later ascents only makes sense if you are comparing apples to apples. Unless a bunch of bolts have been added to the upper section of p1 it should be possible to recreate the 3 bolt experience by climbing up the groove. By the way a super fun (albeit with one really hard section) direct start has been TR’d.

Iron Horse As far back as I can remember (1970s) the intermediate anchors were in place with the exception of the anchor near the top of Arachnid Arch which I believe only had one bolt until sometime in the early 80s. There was a very old virtual bolt ladder leading from the flared section to the belay on top of the Ringing Flake. When the anchors were last replaced the number of bolts on the route actually dropped due to removal of this funky artifact. 10% The intermediate belay bolts have been in place as long as I can remember. (1970s) In the past they have been a perfect place to practice multi-pitch aid techniques. Japanese Gardens Again for as long as I can remember (1970s) there was a funky anchor down and right of the current one. It was a pin and a bolt connected via a bunch of webbing. It was this anchor that inspired Clint to call out the short pitch as a variation. I asked him not to call it out because I am not fond of the whole short pitch thing. The old anchor has been removed. Anchors have pretty much been in existence in some form or another for a very long time. Why all the comments about the anchors when there are bolts just to the right of Stern Farmer that seem far more intrusive?

I only disagree with Mark to the extent that he is wrong about bouldering not existing in the area before logging. A very small group of people had been bouldering in the area on and off for years. Goldbar as a popular destination is the direct result of logging operations.

It's also in the Beckey guide. It might be difficult to pull off in a day if you haven't been in the area before. Lots to do in the general area. I think a frequent poster here might have climbed the route years ago.....

A significant amount of rock fall at Index occurs in the summer. I once almost killed Jon Stoddard and Mark Twight when they were slow to move while a block was slowly slipping off my lap as I was leading Death To Zeke. The top pitches of the Narrow Arrow Standard also contain many loose blocks. Unless cleaned, this not be climbed when other climbers were below. While on those pitches a few months ago and my partner and I thought we were the only climbers at the Lower Wall. We almost yanked some blocks then but decided without knowing for sure that we were alone trundling would have been too risky. It should be noted that both Smoot and I call the route referred to in this thread “Free At Last.”

Short history of the Perverse Traverse (easy 5th class): ~1980 No bolts anywhere ~Mid 1980s Bolts near the start for a TR anchor ~Late 1980/90 New anchors at both ends and two bolts added midway. (Several large blocks were thrown off) In some sense it is already fixed. Back in the 1980’s there was quite a bit of traffic across the PT yet after the addition of end point anchors and midway bolts traffic actually dropped. Does “fixed” mean just securing a rope from the start to finish? A fixed line won’t make the climbing easier but it will enable packs to be moved across it a bit more easily. Does “fixed” mean something more?

A couple months ago the Garden Wall had a scrub down. A Touch Too Much is pretty clean now. Weed-B-Gone is climbable but a few minutes more of scrubbing would help out. The top of Knob Job is still pretty mossy. The Garden Wall is an easy place to set up TRs. Perhaps the best way to TR Touch is to use the anchors on top of WBG. Rap down and set a directional on Touch to minimize a big swing. I think the set of anchors directly above the start of Touch were placed by sport rappelers and are not really located well for climbing use.

A friend and I gave this route a cursory cleaning. It is fully climbable right now but could use a bit more work. (minor brushing, some junk near the top and a pesky bush growing at the base.) I have no idea why this route is so neglected. Definitely one of the best cracks around. Perfect ring and finger jams. Very easy to TR. …and, unlike 25years ago, it’s pretty shady all day.

I don't think anyone was suggesting nailing a clean route. I am pretty sure not one of the pitches I listed earlier have gone clean, but those feeling the need to nail a free route should go aid Bat Skins. The section between the last two bolts had a couple of fixed blades that were stolen. Aid the route and fix those blades again. It's a really fun route that sees little traffic.

Have these routes been climbed clean? Harder: Diagonal Start to Narrow Arrow Overhang Deal w/It Ranger variation Frog Pond P2 Artifice (full pitch) Skin Graph (Unknown 139) Easier: Snowblind Numbah 10 p2 Snow White p2 Stern Jr. Several new variations have been climbed that are definitely not clean.

What will a guy do to avoid hard climbs!

Ah Mike's just avoiding the one route he fears...the one he hears calling to him in the night..whispering his name....the Bobcat Cringe....which is itself merely a warmup for the greatest unclimbed crack in Washington.... Bobcat Reality!

Update

Where: Hales Ales 4301 Leary Way NW Seattle, WA 98107 Mapquest Link When:Thursday February 23 7:30pm TONIGHT Share a beer and talk about Index issues, including Upper Wall Trundling!