DCramer

Actually the tied swami aint so bad. I used one occasionally even to the early 90's. (w/ leg loops usually) The Vertical Club even asked me not to use one in the gym. I have come across one Cascadian's (who intitials his full length tied slings) slings at rappels from Colorado to Yosemite.

I believe that the idea of setting anchors in strategic locations to reduce trail erosion from climbers was one that was endorsed by the D.O.W. after discussion with some climber groups (FCCC?) including the Access Fund.

OK Ray here is the secret - A - Slim Fast! B - Bike riding! C - Took over cooking dinner from my wife! I was 206 sometime last year. In the 80s I was high 130s to 150s. 90s sure were hard. Only advantage to being big is you don't get cold.

Ray - Sad part is 10lbs were because I got really sick! I think that from just before the first bolt to the top you'd be running it out if the biggest thing you brought was a 3". If I remember the crack is too big for a #4 friend most of the way too, at least that was my impression at the time. At the top it thins down a bit and I bet you could get a #4 friend. Hard to remember we did that climb a long time ago. You seem psyched on Index. It is a great place. Now that I've lost weight I want to start climbing more, hope to meet you out there sometime. Of course if you have some secret cleaning project you could always invite me along.

We should start a competition.

Offer rejected, offer rescinded. Ray - I don't have any hard feelings just a bit of boredom at work. If you take them down, you don't need to send them too me. But if you do remove them don't chop - pull and fill the holes. Erik - You're probably right I am not much of a drinker. But I have lost 22lbs since 1/1/02 so I have alot of room somewhere. Darryl

Sorry Erik the proposition is to Ray only: "Ray – I put those bolts in and perhaps I made an error. God knows I have made a bunch over the years. So I have a proposition for you."

Erik - 60 Days from today. Ray - Glad your game. By the way at the Pub Club you had better drink fast as I intend to drink most of the $100.00!

Oh yea we need to have a witness we both agree to.

Ray – I put those bolts in and perhaps I made an error. God knows I have made a bunch over the years. So I have a proposition for you. You go lead the route from the level of the first bolt on using only 2”-3” pieces. I’ll even let you throw in one 4” piece. The only restrictions are that you can’t preview the route in anyway before climbing it and all pieces on your rack have to be standard pieces that would be normally found on an average rack and you can't clip any bolts. If you accept this challenge and actually go to the route with the intent of ascending it I’ll donate $25.00 to buy beers at the next pub club even if you decide not to climb it with the restrictions of this proposition. If you actually climb it using only the 2”-3” rack with one 4” piece, I’ll throw in an additional $25.00. If after succeeding you think it is adequately protected (ie “G” rated) I’ll contribute another $25.00. If you can get Erik to agree with the “G” rating the pot will increase another $25.00. I say Erik because he is one of the few regulars here I know. So the total pot comes to $100.00 for a future Pub Club. If Erik agrees to hold the cash, he can pick it up at my house next time he comes through Seattle. Offer expires after 60 days. Darryl

Some of the cracks can be wet even after a few days of sun. You might want to consider that when deciding on attire. As far as booty goes I would leave fixed pins fixed. Green Dragon has many section s of free climbing and several people have worked on freeing parts of the remaining aid sections. On several occasions climbers have returned for free attempts only to find critical pins removed.

Andy is correct that the climbing is in Iron Horse State Park and thus the closure of Olallie Park doesn’t close Deception Crags, but the response I received (this am)from my voice message to State Parks while acknowledging this fact also clearly stated that while access through Olallie could not be prevented it would be [direct quote] "highly discouraged." The person who left the message was Virginia Painter of the State Parks Department. {Her phone number is available via PM} While in practical terms everyone seems to agree that access won’t be affected, I encourage everyone to go ahead and contact the State Parks and say that continued access to the crags is important!

Just bringing this to the top again. Here is a section copied from the State Parks Website referring to access of "closed" parks: QUESTION: The parks are on public lands. If they are closed, can the public still gain access to the land for recreational purposes? Answer: Because of liability and safety considerations, State Parks would close gates, lock buildings and turn off some utilities. Only minimal staffing would remain in place for stewardship and security activities. State Parks discourages the public from placing themselves and their families at risk by entering closed parks. It is the hope that the parks can be mothballed or temporarily closed until the economy recovers sufficiently to reopen them to the public If you want to ensure continued legal access to the Deception Pass crags I would make an effort make your opinion heard. Earlier today I called the State Parks and left a message asking how access would/could be effected by the closure of Olallie Park. I will post again when/if my call is returned. D

Sorry I am pressed for time right now but here is My report: I called Wenberg State Park and asked how access might be affected. The response: The situation is currently unclear but since the parks provides essentially no services at the Town Walls access to the Town Walls probably will not be affected. On a pragmatic note enforcement would be nearly impossible. Here is a link to the Parks Dept. site. Specifically the page on which they discuss closures. Access has the potential of being an issue at some locations! At the bottom are suggestions for how to provide feedback. http://www.parks.wa.gov/budgetcuts.asp Here is a link showing how to find your state reps. Be sure to give them feedback too! http://dfind.leg.wa.gov/dfinder.cfm

I think I have seen this list before a few years ago - last time this threat arose. If anyone feels like a park on this list should stay open they should NOT be shy in advocating for their position. Asking for clarification as to what "closure" really means is also important. If there are shades of gray we should use them to preserve access. I believe that the Town Walls are managed through the Wallace Falls State Park. Although I cannot see how access to the Town Walls can seriously be threatened, I will make a call and report back any information I collect. Any volunteers willign to do the same for 38?

Report from the UW earler today: First pitch of DH will be wet as will the first pitches of GD and TC. Upper pitches s/b dry. People I spoke with weren't on those routes (in the general area)but seemed confident the routes wouldn't be too wet to have fun. They also said it became so warm they had to take their jackets off! Have fun.

Jon's comments made me go back and read the R&I article. Technique details aside I think the biggest takeaway is to create a workout with a limited number of lifts working opposing muscle groups. I would throw out the regular wrist curls and seated one arm pulls. I would also use more reps and less weight for the lateral raise. Additionally I would add forearm pronation and supination excercises. The goal is to have a small (4-5) core group of excercises (eg Bench, Lat Pull, Dips, Squats) augmented by a few other supporting excercises. The core group excercises all have a power orientation. Anyway thats my plan for world domination. Am I out to lunch Courtney?

I don’t read climbing mags but I checked out that link and was surprised how closely it matched with a program prescribed to me by Karl K. I even purchased a one-arm handle to do it that is still at the Seattle Vertical World. One thing that he thought very important was dips. The R&I article has no mention of them. The other significant difference was that he liked squats and not dead lifts. Courtney. What do you think of the R&I program, Dips and Squat vs. dealifts? [ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: DCramer ]

I can attest to the fact that Pope and Dwayner are in fact two separate individuals. I use to think I dated Donna but this thread has got me worried. Although......it does explain a few things.

quote: Originally posted by DCramer:[QB][/QB] Corrected post above. I can't ever post right.

quote: Originally posted by DCramer: [QB]Can't really respond to your question JayB at least with regard to wildness retrobolting but as far as non-wilderness rock routes there has been some of what I consider over the top retro bolting. Especially at some somewhat popular TR locations. Some of these have been removed and some haven't. Overall I do not think it is that big of a problem. I think that TRs or those routes easily accessable for TRing think DDDare prime targets for such activity simply because of the ease of access. Since these routes are often so visible and have a tradition of not being bolted their "violation" becomes all the more noticeable.[QB]

Can't really respond to your question JayB at least with regard to wildness retrobolting but as far as non wilderness rock routes there has been some of what I consider over the top retro bolting. Especially at some somewhat popular TR locations. Some of these have been removed and some haven't. Overall I do not think it is that big of a problem

Will - See above.

One point of clarification I do not necessarily agree everyone who is against bolting is an asshole. In the context of my discussion with my friend I was playing devil’s advocate and suggesting that even if my friend was right and they all were all assholes their opinion still mattered. Sorry for the confusion. Alas, my associate was not the well respected climber of DDD fame. BTW I think that a survey wasn’t even needed for DDD it was simply a bad idea. Pope: “but what bolting advocates are doing goes beyond discussion: “Does that mean you do not deign to even engage the other side in a discussion? I hope not. I never said I find the bitching about bolts annoying what I find annoying is that we make it a conflict. You appear to not even want to engage the otherside. I must admit however that I would be more engaged in the debate if I felt you were making an honest effort to persuade me or help others to empathize with your viewpoint. I would hazard that both you and your buddy Dwayner could be pretty persuasive if you chose. As for my brilliant discourse let me start off by saying that climbing is such a broad category of activities that the goals and aspirations of some practitioners may be unrecognizable to those at other end of the spectrum. For example, for years the AAC refused to publish non-summit rock climbs because they weren’t considered “real” mountains. To expect all climbers to believe in and value the same things is not reasonable. Are those who see sport crags as just another “ski area” wrong? The real trick is to bring these disparate views together or at least expose them to the “other side.” Darryl

It is nice to see civility being given at least a moment of respect on this board. For the next step I say we should try for “constructive engagement.” When I first started posting here I thought great this could be a wonderful facility to help to create a true community of NW climbers. I was particularly interested in the “bolting’ debate and access related issues. If Dwayner, Pope, et al are serious then I ask why not constructively engage in a discussion. Clearly the tired “sport climbers are effete castrati” line is BS and having loss its patina of humor can only serve as an impediment to positive change. The whole traditional v. sport conflict is a tired cliché promoted mostly by the mags and yet, oddly enough, this argument has been adopted as a means of expression by those who have condemned both sport climbing and those very mags. Although the recent pattern seems to be to make unambiguous statements that are later moderated and the argument slightly adjusted. On the other hand about ten years ago I was discussing putting up sport routes with someone and they said you don’t understand modern climbing! (I was advocating restraint) I have been “dissed” on this site for being a goofy bolter. Yet after face to face discussion of recent bolting activities with many current activists they have come back later and accused me of chopping their routes. It is truly an amazing world. It is easy to whine about bolting on this site yet not one person has ever in over 25 years of putting routes up in Washington has ever contacted me and discussed bolting, cleaning or whatever. That the rock is a limited natural resource has been stated by both sides. The debate itself rages over a continuum bound by the endpoints: All humans off earth and Do whatever you want to do. From a moral/ethical point of view the difference between points can only be determined by social norms. It is in climbers’ best interest to generate these norms themselves. The willingness of the various groups to compromise their position in creating these norms seems to be tenuous at best. I say we are in the same boat and truth be told most of us are probably not that far apart. As far as the site goes I thought that the excitement and enthusiasm the creators have for what they do is contagious and inspiring. Stuck at work sometimes it is easy to forget what fun climbing can be. Speaking of which I have to get back to it. This part added after a terribly boring work related lunch: One bolt advocate and I mean he thinks bolting by cracks is OK type of advocate called me up and after finding out I did not chop his route started whining to me about the DDD debacle (quick aside: It always comes up because it is so atypical) He mentioned the debate on this site and how all the anti-bolters were ass$%^& how he wanted no part of any discussion with them. I responded saying ok I agree they are all assholes but that their opinion not their generally BS argument should be considered. He said something to the effect of “F%$# those ass#$$%.” He also said, similar to what I wrote above, that he received lots of pro-comments but virtually no anti-comments on a face to face basis. Now this guy does some very bold traditional climbing, doesn’t bolt for any self promotion but honestly feels it is ok. The argument that sport climbers are ego fueled wimps was obviously set to insult not convince and so it did not/does not move him but he was receptive to the fact that other might have different views and that maybe these views might warrant respect. I guess I see the anti-bolters missing an opportunity. Dwayner and Pope are surely capable of writing a more persuasive commentary. I am somewhat sympathetic to their conclusion but feel that the issue is so big as to have many causes and solutions; however, enumerating and discussing them all could be an enjoyable activity. Darryl [ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: DCramer ]