mattp

Its been a while since I've carried Space Food Sticks, the first commercial energy bars which were sold to us as having been taken to the moon on Apollo missions.

Whatever, dude.

SO now you and your fiscally responsible buddy Fairweather want to suggest that the State budget might be only 3/4 of what it is or less if the Governor were not "irresponsible." That could be, but now you are suggesting that the bridge construction take even that much MORE of a percentage of the State's operating budget. There are a lot of issues surrounding the new 520 bridge, but just what exactly is your problem with the possibility that it will have a toll?

I don't think KK rides across the Evergreen Bridge. I think we are talking about a general notion that government should pay for everything he wants but he shouldn't pay unreasonable tolls or taxes. That and that he thinks he could do a better job of overseeing the budget than anybody who has operated it for the last forever.

To be sure, some people will be more comfortable or for whatever reason better served by a "program." I indicated that I bet he can learn "as much" by pursuing something more along thelines of what Bug was a suggesting but he'd certainly learn a lot from the Mountaineers or AAI.

I agree, Mr. Moron, that where there are materials on such topics as "how to escape the belay" readily available, one would be an idiot not to read them. But I'm one of those idiots. I just think that we often mistake some kind of checklist of the "basics" for a fundamental knowledge of what it takes to be a competent climber. For example: I've had an instructor for a local climbing club freak out on me when I took the belay rope I was tied to and wrapped it around a large horn four times and treated it like a belay anchor even though it wasn't actually tied with a knot and wasn't "redundant." A focus on specific "basics" seemed (to me) to override common sense and the location was such that to build a proper anchor would have taken a lot of gardening and wasted a bunch of time on what was a fairly large climb even if I was in fact able to dig out cracks for a couple pieces of gear.

I think you may misunderstand my point, Mr. Builder. I did not mean to suggest one should not try to maintain good anchors or to learn technical skills. I was suggesting that I encounter a lot of climbers who are obsessed with a few specific ways to do something such as set up SRENE anchors because they learned this in a class or read about it in John Long's book, while they would benefit more from doing some aid climbing, developing better climbing technique, or whatever else would round out their skills more generally. In my opinion, Mr. Pimp here will likely learn as much from getting out and climbing a variety of types of climbs with a variety of partners (hopefully most of whom know what they are doing) than he might in taking a weekend workshop or even, perhaps, an entire program from one of the local clubs. (With that same time investment, he could go to Darrington with me, climb something really good with Bug, and move on to climb with guys who actually know what they are doing.)

OK then, what about the budget? What about the bridge? Should this limited government of yours spend that much money on a very small bit of roadway and encourage it to be overused and thus causing traffic jams and extra pollution before the paint is even dry?

Feel free to answer my question, and clarify what your actual position may be while you are at it. To rail on "big government" without being able to look at and address real numbers is, as you say, lame.

KK, I've actually worked for the government and I'm sure I experienced government waste as acutely as most anybody but your constant railings that "all they have to do is cut the fat and they could lower my taxes" is nutty. Especially when you support and have all along supported the biggest expense of all in the national budget: Iraq. In the case of washington, next year's budge is estimated at 29 billion, http://www.ofm.wa.gov/budget08/highlights/assets/pdf/highlights.pdf The new bridge is estimated to cost 1.7 to 3.1 billion, and I'm guessing you won't opt for the 4-lane bridge as a replacement. http://www.seattlechannel.org/issues/sr520.asp So do you think Washington state can afford to spend that much of the annual budget on one five mile stretch of road without borrowing somewhere or imposing tolls?

KK, I'm relying on my memory of old posts of yours but don't you hate "big government," rail about excessive taxation, and complain that government regulation is by definition wasteful or worse? I"m assuming you agree that we need a new floating bridge. Are you saying you want the State to build one that is either a zillion lanes wide or, if not, will not solve current transportation problems let alone future ones? Wouldn't THAT be government waste at its worst? Do you think we should borrow the money for it rather than pay as we go? The imposition of tolls is proposed not only to help pay for it but also to reduce usage - especially in peak traffic hours.

I'm sorry to be contrarian, but I have been repeatedly amazed to hear all this talk about SRENE anchors and "escaping the belay" over the last few years. Back in the old days when we were real men nobody ever heard of such things and it seems to me that a lot of climbers made it up and down big scary hard routes without anywhere near this degree of specific training and that, if anything, climbers used to be BETTER at self rescue when the sh#t hit the proverbial fan. Learning to "escape the belay" is a good idea, but it is not the litmus test for a safe climber, in my opinion. Being strong and learning to climb in a variety of settings and styles will take you a lot further than a weekend workshop.

Kevbone may have heard of something connected with this: ACLU memo regarding Senate report regarding terrorism on the Internet His summation is a little bit of an exaggeration, perhaps, but there is some movement in the direction he suggests.

I deliberately acknowledged my limited experience in the subject area so you could discount my opinion appropriately, RuMr, and like I said: I don't think we know enough from dogmatic posts on cc.com to judge whether any of us are good are bad parents in totality. From what you post here, you seem like a pretty good dad but I was commenting on the apparent insistence that Kevbone's issue with corporal punishment is proof tantamont that he is not a good dad.

I think it is about 5.desparate presently. A guy could die there, but probably not. However, there area a few other worthy climbs in the area: "chainsaw" and "bad bolts" are both 5.suck.

IT sounds to me as if peakpimp is ready to go climbing. I'd take you up some multi-pitch routes in Darrington and show you a little bit about how to use the equipment, Mr. Pimp, if you want to help with a bit of maintenance work. Others around here will partner up to go climb moderate alpine routes if you are flexible about your schedule or bring something else to the equation such as a working automobile, I'm sure. Fair warning: I have arthritis currently preventing me from turning my head and my glasses look like coke bottles, so climbing with me will definitely be "the blind leading the blind" but I do know a thing or two about climbing.

Any glacier and even some non-glacial creeping snowfields can have hidden crevasses. An old friend of mine with decades' experience at glacier travel once broke his leg skiing Mt. Ruth when he hit an unseen crevasse and I was on the Interglacier when someone fell in and could not be extricated even with a ten-person rescue team but still, in general, I think some of these relatively benign glaciers in the North Cascades, mid-season, are not overly hazardous.

That could very well be, KK. I mostly ignore threads where you, Kevbone, and RumR are predominate. I have watched this one a little bit, though, because it seemed to me that from the very beginning this was yet another dogmatic argument with a dash of kevbone bashing and I just wanted to enjoy the mudfight as a distraction these past two days.

KK and Rumor, I'm speaking from the peanut gallery as I have not raised children but it seems to me that mostly you've just shown that you confuse corporal punishment with discipline and boundaries and apparently believe there can be no discipline without spanking. I have no idea what kind of parent Kevbone is, or what kind either of you are, based on this thread or really much of any other on this board. The insistence that if Kevone doesn't spank his kids he is not instilling discipline causes me to wonder if both of you lack the skill and imagination needed to be a good dad, though.

Sahale and Mt. Ruth would be good choices. Whitehorse too.

What are you saying here, Mr. ChestPuff? My observation that there are things I like and dislike about the U.S. and other countries, and my conclusion that we are in fact NOT better than the rest of the world is due to some desire to try to relate to college kids? Grow up. You have elected to serve your country and you are entitled to be proud of it if you wish but that doesn't mean that you need to put down everyone else who has a different view of everything from U.S. military intervention to parenting methods.

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've traveled a bit myself and I have never concluded that the US is so much better than everywhere else. It is my home, and I'm not in a hurry to move to Thailand or France even though I certainly enjoy taking vacations in other countries, but self-aggrandizing proclamations that "the U.S. is the best nation on earth" coupled with put downs of those who may be so uninformed as to not realize this have always seemed to me to be nothing but mind-dumbing tools of someone who doesn't want to really look at the world and wants to justify U.S. hegemony whether it is justifiable or not. It is a lot like the simplistic slogans I heard from my teachers in kindergarten.

Telemarker, a friend of mine who resided in Wenatchee at the time told me that at the end of the day it was at least somewhat accepted that there had in fact been some real sexual abuse of some children, but that the authorities had botched the investigation and the witch hunt was mishandled. To a degree, he said those who read the Pulitizer Prize winning series in the Seattle papers were victims of a second witch hunt. Does this match your memory at all?

What Kevbone described to me sounded “unsightly” at best, though I don’t know if I’d go so far as to pronounce it child abuse. C’mon: tweaking the kid’s shoulder to make him yelp in pain? When I even see a bitchy parent publicly and harshly berating their child who appears to be doing nothing wrong I feel bad for the kid and disapproving of the parent but maybe that is just me. I try to remind myself that I really don’t now much about the relationship between those people from where I stand, walking behind the next shopping cart (kind of like how it is questionable in my book to evaluate other’s marriages based on what I observe at a cocktail party) but of course we look at the people we meet and formulate our judgments. The question as to when or whether to intervene is different: here I would say that the abuse has to go way beyond what was described. Even if I’m right that the parent it being abusive, I’d probably be wrong to confront them in public and in front of their child. First of all, it is not my business. Second of all, I don’t have any way to know what impact my intervention may have – positive or negative. As to disciplinary methods and parenting, it sounds to me as if several here are missing the mark. My dad used to use a leather belt on occasion yet we as children used to fear the shaming that went along with my parents’ version of “go to your room” more than the actual belt. Also, apart from actual methods, my parents were at times considered among the more lax of those among my friends in terms of discipline. Hell: they let me camp out and go mountain climbing unsupervised at age eight (maybe it was nine), even if it was only Mount Monadnock.

Sorry. No deal.. When they try to crawl in bed with me or dance on my face it is not ok. Fred has a nice essay about this at the beginning or end of one of the chapters in the green guide. It has been not ok for 100 years.