mattp

Are you holding out for another swiftboat attack?

That's right. The Buckeyes suck!!!!

1969, Crag Camp, Randolph New Hampshire. At a hut just below timberline on Mount Adams I was as a young lad treated to Bob Dylan's "Nashville Skyline" on a hand crank record player - one of those with the big trumpet coming right outta the tone arm. Hut keeper Tad Pfeif was quite a character.

You are right that the word "decommission" usually means the kind of effort you are describing, Builder, but in the context of the original post I don't think that is what we are really talking about. Relatively few roads have been or will be decommissioned in that fashion whereas hundreds of roads are simply being "let go" or gated (if you count all the spur roads, it is probably thousands). Fairweather's hit one nail squarely on the head, to be sure. I think there is more to it than that however. Not only may closing roads shut out many deserving recreational users and possibly erode support for the preservation of public lands, but simply abandoning roads in place can lead to serious habitat destruction in terms of stream damage and it may also interfere with sensible resource management concerning other issues. For example, some areas may appropriately see fire suppression, motorized recreational access and even some well-managed timber harvest. Unstructured camping is a traditional activity that is a plus for many users though perhaps not a good idea in the Middle Fork of the Snoqualmie River, and fisherman, boaters, berry pickers and hunters deserve access just as much as hikers and climbers. Climbers as a whole are a pretty green bunch and I doubt even the most strident access nut would say that all or even most of the current roads and spurs should be maintained. Hell, I bet even Fairweather could be talked into agreeing that what was formerly a main trunk road somewhere would be appropriate for closure if he was invoilved in a comprehensive discussion of recreation and resource priorities and he thought the discussion might lead to what he perceived as a "balanced" plan. It is easy to take a hard core "anti-closure" stance when looking at the last few decades' ad hoc closure of road after road with what seems to be a one-way ratchet (almost never has an abandoned road ever been rehabilitated). It is also a nataural reaction to some of the preservationist tirades from hard core environmentalists. However, it is similarly easy to take a hard core "close everything we can" stance when looking at the last century's destruction of much that was once wild and the ongoing impact of recreational use that is in many areas inadequately managed. A big problem, in my opinion, is that we are not seeing enough comprehensive evaluation of resource and recreation management issues or long term management plan for the region as a whole. Some may have hoped the something like the Grizzly Bear recovery plan or the Northwest Forest Plan could have offered such an opportunity, but I don't think they really have.

Builder, I think there is some reality in the blanket statement that land managers as a group want to decommission or at least close roads. Clearly not all roads and not all land managers, but a simple and cheap steel gate solves a lot of problems when when a land manager is faced with budget constraints, environmental concerns, police problems, manpower shortages, and numerous other challenges we could think of. This one reason why we, as a user group, need to participate in recreation and resource management discussions in a way that not only promotes our interest in being able to get to the crags and mountains that we enjoy but which also recognizes the balance and trade-offs necessary so that we are perceived as "reasonable."

Goat, that is more or less what I'm saying. I'd certainly recommend any new climber read FOTH, John Long, and whatever other resource materials are available, and I'd also support anybody's inclination to sign up with the Mounties or hire a guide for a one-on-one intensive or whatever. But it is a mistake to confuse learning specific techniques - such as the scripted protocol for escaping the belay - for fundamental knowledge that will enable one to respond to getting stuck (for example, what if you've left that specific cord you were carrying for escaping the belay at your last station as part of the anchor or it got chewed by a snaffle - in such a case you can't follow the script). It is also a mistake to assume that a checklist or protocol will keep you safe. Remembering what the acronym SRENE stands for is a lot less helpful than simply being able to evaluate a cam placement. I've had more than one friend "graduate" from a club climbing course only to have to be "deprogrammed" by their peers so we could actually go climbing with them without carrying the ten essentials on a 3-pitch rock climb or enjoy a romp up the West Ridge of North Twin without turning it into a grade V or so that, heaven forbid, we could ski the Sulfide Glacier without roping up. My general impression is that those who have learned in a more unstructured manner (that may or may not have involved a lot of serious "trial and error") are likely to be weaker in some of the specific technical skills but more comfortable with relying on their own judgment and understanding that there is more than one formula for a safe belay anchor.

Its been a while since I've carried Space Food Sticks, the first commercial energy bars which were sold to us as having been taken to the moon on Apollo missions.

Whatever, dude.

SO now you and your fiscally responsible buddy Fairweather want to suggest that the State budget might be only 3/4 of what it is or less if the Governor were not "irresponsible." That could be, but now you are suggesting that the bridge construction take even that much MORE of a percentage of the State's operating budget. There are a lot of issues surrounding the new 520 bridge, but just what exactly is your problem with the possibility that it will have a toll?

I don't think KK rides across the Evergreen Bridge. I think we are talking about a general notion that government should pay for everything he wants but he shouldn't pay unreasonable tolls or taxes. That and that he thinks he could do a better job of overseeing the budget than anybody who has operated it for the last forever.

To be sure, some people will be more comfortable or for whatever reason better served by a "program." I indicated that I bet he can learn "as much" by pursuing something more along thelines of what Bug was a suggesting but he'd certainly learn a lot from the Mountaineers or AAI.

I agree, Mr. Moron, that where there are materials on such topics as "how to escape the belay" readily available, one would be an idiot not to read them. But I'm one of those idiots. I just think that we often mistake some kind of checklist of the "basics" for a fundamental knowledge of what it takes to be a competent climber. For example: I've had an instructor for a local climbing club freak out on me when I took the belay rope I was tied to and wrapped it around a large horn four times and treated it like a belay anchor even though it wasn't actually tied with a knot and wasn't "redundant." A focus on specific "basics" seemed (to me) to override common sense and the location was such that to build a proper anchor would have taken a lot of gardening and wasted a bunch of time on what was a fairly large climb even if I was in fact able to dig out cracks for a couple pieces of gear.

I think you may misunderstand my point, Mr. Builder. I did not mean to suggest one should not try to maintain good anchors or to learn technical skills. I was suggesting that I encounter a lot of climbers who are obsessed with a few specific ways to do something such as set up SRENE anchors because they learned this in a class or read about it in John Long's book, while they would benefit more from doing some aid climbing, developing better climbing technique, or whatever else would round out their skills more generally. In my opinion, Mr. Pimp here will likely learn as much from getting out and climbing a variety of types of climbs with a variety of partners (hopefully most of whom know what they are doing) than he might in taking a weekend workshop or even, perhaps, an entire program from one of the local clubs. (With that same time investment, he could go to Darrington with me, climb something really good with Bug, and move on to climb with guys who actually know what they are doing.)

OK then, what about the budget? What about the bridge? Should this limited government of yours spend that much money on a very small bit of roadway and encourage it to be overused and thus causing traffic jams and extra pollution before the paint is even dry?

Feel free to answer my question, and clarify what your actual position may be while you are at it. To rail on "big government" without being able to look at and address real numbers is, as you say, lame.

KK, I've actually worked for the government and I'm sure I experienced government waste as acutely as most anybody but your constant railings that "all they have to do is cut the fat and they could lower my taxes" is nutty. Especially when you support and have all along supported the biggest expense of all in the national budget: Iraq. In the case of washington, next year's budge is estimated at 29 billion, http://www.ofm.wa.gov/budget08/highlights/assets/pdf/highlights.pdf The new bridge is estimated to cost 1.7 to 3.1 billion, and I'm guessing you won't opt for the 4-lane bridge as a replacement. http://www.seattlechannel.org/issues/sr520.asp So do you think Washington state can afford to spend that much of the annual budget on one five mile stretch of road without borrowing somewhere or imposing tolls?

KK, I'm relying on my memory of old posts of yours but don't you hate "big government," rail about excessive taxation, and complain that government regulation is by definition wasteful or worse? I"m assuming you agree that we need a new floating bridge. Are you saying you want the State to build one that is either a zillion lanes wide or, if not, will not solve current transportation problems let alone future ones? Wouldn't THAT be government waste at its worst? Do you think we should borrow the money for it rather than pay as we go? The imposition of tolls is proposed not only to help pay for it but also to reduce usage - especially in peak traffic hours.

I'm sorry to be contrarian, but I have been repeatedly amazed to hear all this talk about SRENE anchors and "escaping the belay" over the last few years. Back in the old days when we were real men nobody ever heard of such things and it seems to me that a lot of climbers made it up and down big scary hard routes without anywhere near this degree of specific training and that, if anything, climbers used to be BETTER at self rescue when the sh#t hit the proverbial fan. Learning to "escape the belay" is a good idea, but it is not the litmus test for a safe climber, in my opinion. Being strong and learning to climb in a variety of settings and styles will take you a lot further than a weekend workshop.

Kevbone may have heard of something connected with this: ACLU memo regarding Senate report regarding terrorism on the Internet His summation is a little bit of an exaggeration, perhaps, but there is some movement in the direction he suggests.

I deliberately acknowledged my limited experience in the subject area so you could discount my opinion appropriately, RuMr, and like I said: I don't think we know enough from dogmatic posts on cc.com to judge whether any of us are good are bad parents in totality. From what you post here, you seem like a pretty good dad but I was commenting on the apparent insistence that Kevbone's issue with corporal punishment is proof tantamont that he is not a good dad.

I think it is about 5.desparate presently. A guy could die there, but probably not. However, there area a few other worthy climbs in the area: "chainsaw" and "bad bolts" are both 5.suck.

IT sounds to me as if peakpimp is ready to go climbing. I'd take you up some multi-pitch routes in Darrington and show you a little bit about how to use the equipment, Mr. Pimp, if you want to help with a bit of maintenance work. Others around here will partner up to go climb moderate alpine routes if you are flexible about your schedule or bring something else to the equation such as a working automobile, I'm sure. Fair warning: I have arthritis currently preventing me from turning my head and my glasses look like coke bottles, so climbing with me will definitely be "the blind leading the blind" but I do know a thing or two about climbing.

Any glacier and even some non-glacial creeping snowfields can have hidden crevasses. An old friend of mine with decades' experience at glacier travel once broke his leg skiing Mt. Ruth when he hit an unseen crevasse and I was on the Interglacier when someone fell in and could not be extricated even with a ten-person rescue team but still, in general, I think some of these relatively benign glaciers in the North Cascades, mid-season, are not overly hazardous.

That could very well be, KK. I mostly ignore threads where you, Kevbone, and RumR are predominate. I have watched this one a little bit, though, because it seemed to me that from the very beginning this was yet another dogmatic argument with a dash of kevbone bashing and I just wanted to enjoy the mudfight as a distraction these past two days.

KK and Rumor, I'm speaking from the peanut gallery as I have not raised children but it seems to me that mostly you've just shown that you confuse corporal punishment with discipline and boundaries and apparently believe there can be no discipline without spanking. I have no idea what kind of parent Kevbone is, or what kind either of you are, based on this thread or really much of any other on this board. The insistence that if Kevone doesn't spank his kids he is not instilling discipline causes me to wonder if both of you lack the skill and imagination needed to be a good dad, though.