mattp

I don't see why guys who say "its all good in spray" get so worried when somebody in a spray thread says that somebody else could be nicer about how they make a point and we'd be better for it.

Porter: are you saying that you don't even want to consider whether there is anything that you as site owners or we as moderators should or might do to influence the tone of discussions around here? I don't think that is what you are saying, but your post in and of itself seems to suggest this. My own thinking is that the site is really very good as it is, that it could be even better, and that we can and almost certainly will evolve in one way or another.

There's plenty of room to start up a climate change thread, Minx. Meanwhile I'll comment on a tiny bit of what Pope wrote to say that the history of climbing in Washington shows that bolt wars have more often threatened access than bolting practices themseslves. One climbing area is closed because a guy who disliked sport bolting tried to enlist land managers/owners on "his side" (the Omak Reservation), and similar efforts were attempted at three more other areas that I know of and in at least one case there was real danger that the area might have been closed as a result. There was five years ago some fear that bolting on one route that shall remain nameless might jeopardize access in a broader area but it was not the land managers who brought up the issue in the first place and they are happy NOT to be faced with any ongoing problem or need for enforcement. Their budgets are strapped and they have other more important things to spend money and staff resources on. This doesn't suggest that bolting practices are not important, or that they have not ever caused access issues. It also does not address the obvious fact sport climbing areas can become very popular overnight and this can generate a whole host of problems and we could argue for weeks over whether your favorite crack climb at Index caused way more environmental destruction than any of the routes on "sport wall." Mr. Pope has some good points here, as Dawg did earlier in the thread, but despite my bad mouthing our beloved Cascades and this incredible website I'd like to throw in my vote for being a little careful about what we assert as "truth" or whatever.

So is this thing happening? One guy might be able to make it a party does not make. What's up, folks? (Golden Gardens would be pretty nice tonight, I bet.)

It is fun to watch over an active fireworks area on the fourth, but any particular display is not all that impressive from afar. Its cool to watch an area just teaming with fireworks, as you would from Pilchuck, but you really gotta enjoy being on the mountain first, and enjoy the novelty of the fireworks second. Otherwise you or kids will wish you'd just gone to the fireworks.

I'll admit to being a curmudgeon, Bug, but not the personal attack. I actually attempted to steer the conversation AWAY from personal attack, saying I somewhat agree with OffWhite but it is neither here nor there and I'm more interested in talking about our ethical discussions "in general" than I am in talking about whether or not Dawg is a good guy. In my examples of what I find frustrating, I sought to chose examples that regular posters here would recognize, but I similarly avoided mention of some items I have recently found substantially more maddening or whatever or are recent "hot topics" that someone would surely feel the need to debate. Further, I selected examples that were not necessarily references to the Dawg or even his position. I hoped to talk and encourage talk about an "issue" rather than a "person." As you note, Dawg's essay here was well stated.

So is this the “Is Dawg your friend” thread now? As a frequent “adversary” of the Dawg on this board, I”ll echo some of what our brother Off White said about how it is sad to see someone who is either as bitter as the Dawg professes to be or who amuses himself pretending to be the curmudgeon who hates all things new but either way I think that somewhat misses the point - at least in the context of the original post to this thread. And it also tends to obscure the fact that the issues of style and ethics are very real issues that actually matter a great deal, but cc.com either can not or simply is not the place to address them. The problem I have with cc.com discussions in general is that there really is not much discussion. Everyone becomes a cartoon character, with one guy posting about how one climber in particular or maybe everyone climbing today should be ashamed of their selves, someone else posting some taunting pictures of artificial holds, another guy beating his chest about not needing all the pussy bolts, somebody spewing baseless insults just to see if he can get rise, and two or three more saying “ho hum...” With cc.com or the internet or climbers being what they are [pick one] the discussion here all too often it boils down to name calling and some kind of sprayathon completely devoid of factual information or even any professed interest in the facts. One guy says it is those younger climbers who learned to climb in the gym who are putting in all the bolts. Really? Last time I checked, that isn't true and virtually everybody who has been criticized here over bolting issues learned to climb before there was a single climbing gym anywhere. Somebody else says “such and such is a pathetic bolted crack” or blah blah blah is a sporto weenie route. Go out and look, and what do you know: it is not that way. Somebody else asserts that we don’t have to worry about slander or stupidity around here because the rangers or conservation groups or whoever we don’t want to offend or misinform never reads this site. Guess again. Sometimes these “truths” or “untruths” are merely mistakes or disagreements or language, but much of the time they simply occur because we are too busy trying to score points in an Internet argument to slow down and think about whether we have anything significant to say. CC.COM is what it is and we are who we are. For some the entertainment is more important than anything else, others come here for TR’s and maybe even hope to learn something more substantive once in a while. Still others are looking for climbing partners. Are any of these “ethics threads” important? Does any of it matter? I think it does but we can all disagree about how much or why.

An important point. Our memories play tricks on us but we'll all swear by our own recollection of events. In reflecting on Serenity's comments above, I wonder just how "weirdwood" might ever have "gotten it right?" A daily journal of someone fighting in Iraq or elsewhere would reveal that the vast majority of time spent even in an active war zone is neither exciting nor heroic, wouldn't it? And any accurate recounting of "what it was like" would have to reflect the reality that there are as many realities as there are soldiers, and none of those are real either. That "truth" would be hard to portray even in a book, let alone a film. If Oliver Stone entertained his audience while imparting even a distorted sense of what it was like but at least some of the sensibilities involved shone through that'd be as good as any newspaper or historical text account, wouldn't it? In what fundamental way was this production misleading?

I am seriously hurt that you would say that anybody could conclude I am an asshole from my behavior in this thread. I've been a perfect gentleman, have I not? (OK well, I did get a little pissed off.) In the wild wild west that is the spray forum I observe, three four or maybe even five times a year that the way we carry on and insult each other here actually DOES impact not only the rest of the site but real people in the real world outside cc.com. It's a pretty innocuous point, really. Every time I bring such a point before this audience - every single time - I am personally attacked for it. To you guys who like to exchange hostility and insult on a daily basis: what's up? We maintain a home for you here. I participate in maintaining it. Why can't I suggest that there are downsides to being a jerk?

I thought you weren't talking to me. I too have met my "adversaries" in the mountains and I have gone climbing with several of them. So what?

You are absolutely right, Porter, that it is no recent development. It is also true that online (mostly) anonymous jerks are not unique to cc.com. And, I think you are right to suggest that "good taste" is a rather subjective concept and that at least to some extent we will never be able to runs this site so that it doesn't offend anybody or even so that it doesn't offend lots of somebody's. Have we struck the appropriate balance? There are lots of different viewpoints on this question. But I don't think anybody can legitimately argue that there are not real trade offs being made. Quite apart from the question of whether certain behavior on this site discourages broader participation here, I think it is clear that much of what happens here is not only distasteful but it has real impact on how we see each other. Even bickering in spray affects how we conduct ourselves in the other forums and things that happen here affect how we behave at the crag or in the mountains.

I'm sorry to have hurt your feelings but this is spray. I didn't spread my ill will outside of spray so it doesn't matter, right?

Please accept my appropriate fuck you. You add much to the site. Not all of it is positive in my humble opinion.

Um fuck you too. I rarely intervene in your amusing yourself here. The fact that you can't take my statement without going to the "fuck you place" speaks volumes, dude. (And, I'll say, I have been unable to climb anything worthy of a trip report for six months due to serious back pain caused by a degenerative arthritis condition aggravated by spending too much time at work. Just because you have time and money and health to do nothing but climb doesn't make you into jesus christ. Meanwhile, I contribute to the site as much as anybody, organizing work parties, social events, and trying to add constructive comment and real information where I have somethign to contribute.) Carry on.

Are you seriously arguing that the pointless put downs and personal attack that characterize cc.com to a large extent take place only in spray? I am on an almost daily basis telling my friends that if they simply overlook the sociopathic behavior of what is really a relatively small number of posters they'd find that this is an "active, rich climbing website and a great place to hook up with stellar partners and new friends" (your words). Sadly, most people just can't overlook that stuff. CC.COM is great, but your form of "recreation" - particularly where it spills over to non-spray threads - prevents it from becoming greater. Whine on.

As I said: I like the Cascades as much as anybody, and as I forgot to say: I specifically moved here for that reason and I'm happy with that choice. I'm just sayin' that if it is the actual climbing that we are talking about, Yosemite, the Bugaboos, Mt. Robson, the Waddington Range, the Alaska Range ... there are a lot of other destinations that come higher on my list of really cool climbing destinations than our mighty Mt. Stuart or whatever. But I like all that Washington has to offer - the mountains, desert, coast and, yes, the City of Seattle. But really: what crag in Washington compares to the 'Gunks? I think Peter's original point was not only that Washington really is not the center of the universe for climbing, but also that many very active posters on cc.com simply seem to want to spread ill will rather than talk about how much all of us like climbing or even the climbs themselves and this is unfortunate. I'm expanding on his point, but I'm pretty sure I'm accurate in my expanded interpretation. I love this place; I post day in and day out and I've made lots of great friends here. But cc.com could be better.

Driving across the country by myself in about 1982, I picked up a hitch hiker somewhere in Idaho who was going to the Rainbow Gathering and I went to one of those gatherings for a day (I can't remember but I may not have stayed over night). I received the same greeting: "welcome home, brother..." The only thing I really remember about it was there was a guy teaching a stonebuilding workshop who was pretty good at using a hammer to whack at rocks and split them into building shapes. I was impressed by stone ovens built from rocks and mud collected right there... that and that everybody there was friendly and the food was pretty good.

I've skied the SW Chutes on Adams, and the Fryingpan on Rainer in August and found them to be pretty good. For September ski trips I have had more "mixed" results but I have had fresh snow on the Muir Snowfield once or twice.

There's Mike's book and then there's my book. I once thought I wanted to climb the Willis Wall but I was a lot younger then and had a different idea about a lot of things including risk. I thoroughly enjoyed a mellow climb up the Mowich Face with a good friend about ten years ago (descending the Sickle sucked, though ).

The Mowich Face and the Willis Wall are not even in the same book, in my book.

Do you think that is the mark of a good climber, or a good alpine climber? I'm not putting it or anybody down, but I don't think that particular route is in most books as a test piece.

We look forward to it. At least some of us, anyway.

That'll give you time to scare up a volleyball team or maybe go out snafflehound hunting for the barbeque.

I'd like to see you guys but I'll be out of town most of this week. DOn't know what anybody else may say, though.

And you don't have a clue about what and who you are putting down on a weekly if not daily basis on cc.com. When was the last time you climbed the South Face of Prussik Peak? Numbah Ten at Index? Have you ever met the climbers you attack by name? How many of them? Do you sign your attacks with YOUR name? Try posting some trip reports and telling us how much you love climbing some time to balance out some of the rest of it. Meanwhile, carry on. As I posted last time you were miffed when I commented on one of your rude attacks: you have a right to your opinion and I even defend your right to post here once in a while.