mattp

Good idea. Then some big man in the IRS is going to look out his window and thnk, you know, tose climbers are OK. there should be a tax excemtion on climbing equipment. We all win.

I already made this point in another discussion, but I believe it is appropriate here too. The Fee Demonstration Program is completely bogus, and I fully believe the story about the ARC. Also, I think it is outrageous to make us pay to play on public lands -- especially when our tax dollars go to subsidizing commercial exploitation of those lands. But I also believe that the local National Forest is strapped for cash, and the District rangers see the fee demo program as a source of funding for things like trail maintenance. I fully support anybody who is willing to spend their own time and money to protest the fee demonstration program. But at the same time, let's not declare war on and make enemies of those that control and maintain access to Snow Creek Wall, the Enchantments, or much of the North Cascades. I'm not sure what the best course of action is, but we need to bear in mind that what we are ultimately seeking is political change that includes a reorganization of funding priorities and also an improvement in the relationship between climbers and land managers.

quote: Originally posted by Lambone: Have fun in the sun! Unfortunately, the weather forecast sounds as if the clouds are going to move in today at 4:30 pm and the sun is not likely to return untill -- what do you want to bet -- Tuesday morning about 8:00 am.

Lambone, I agree with most of what you have stated here. Yes, a "dynamic belay" is desirable. Yes, its OK if my belayer gets picked up by my weight. Yes, the only time I worry about dynamic motion is if I might land on something. And yes, a belayer should not attach themselves by the back of their waist. None of these points, however, negate what I am saying. As imorris noted, this discussion may involve too many what "if's" to make a decent point. But as to your "do you have them belay straight off of the bolts on a hanging belay? Even if the only gear the pitch takes are little RP's...?" My answer is "probably not," but I might if it is an A-1 pitch and there will be a lot of those RP placements and there are bomber belay bolts and my belayer wants to zip up their jacket and pull their shell pants on and... My point is that for me it is a matter of sizing up what I think is going to be my biggest source of possible system failure in the event of a fall and addressing that as my number one concern. There are situations where maximizing the dynamic nature of the belay is one or two places down my list of worries. By the way, I belay off my waist, and prefer that my partner do so, at least 90% of the time. [ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: mattp ]

That's my point: I think there are situations where it would be a mistake not to have the belayer set the device directly on the anchors. For example, if we cannot set up the belay so that the belayer is ancored IN THE DIRECTION of a potential fall force (that is, with the belayer sitting between the anchor and the expected fall force), and particularly if that belayer is small and inexperienced, I would rather set it up so they belay me directly from the belay anchor. I will back everything up, and I will think about using rippers to reduce fall forces on a questionnable piece (I usually have a couple on my rack), but on balance I think the greater shock loading may be offset by the greater security for the belayer in this example. [ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: mattp ]

That would be a good shortcut for climbing Mount Ellinor when you can drive up the road, say, as far as the lower Mt. Ellinor trailhead. It would not at all help to get toward Mt. Washington. If you are blocked lower down (anywhere near or before Big Creek), I believe the route I described would be more useful -- whether you are going to Ellinor or Washington.

Good explanation, Lambone, but I believe that, as Glen suggested, the decision should be based on the consideration you raised but also upon other factors such as the expertise and physical characteristics of the belayer, rope management concerns, the security of both the belay and the protection anchors, and your ability to set up a belay where the belayer is not going to be pulled off their stance in the event of a fall. As to jumping off the rock when you fall, I should note that many gym trained climbers get so used to doing this that it becomes so instinctive that they do so even when it is a bad idea, such as when their last piece of pro was a stopper prone to failure when pulled outward but secure for a downward pull.

Maybe we are doing different climbs, but I would say that it is not all that uncommon for me to encounter belay ledges where the anchors may not be ideally situated right behind the waist of the belayer. They may be bomber anchors, but if they are in a crack next to a ledge, or if belay bolts are placed for east of retrieving a rappel line from below, they may be off to the side. In such an event, the belayer may be tethered to a leash in such a way that a large pull from a leader fall may pull them out of position. Maybe you only climb with totally bomber partners who weigh more than you do, but I very often climb with people who I fear may do a less than stellar job of belaying me and one of the things that I sometimes worry about is whether they will be able to keep hold of me in the event that they are pulled out of position. Again, particularly if it is a lighter climber, and particularly if they are inexperienced, I fear that a sudden jerk upon them may catch them unaware and they may not do what I had in mind. Someone who is not being pulled off the belay ledge, I believe, will be better able to pay attention to my needs than someone who is dangling in space and being pinned sideways by their anchor tether. I am not saying this is a common situation, but I am saying it is one that I encounter. And I intended it only as an example of ONE situation where I would advocate belaying directly off the anchor. My point is that each belay ledge and each belayer must be carefully evaluated and one should be prepared to deviate from "rules" when they don't seem to address an important concern.

Not lately, but I did that two or three years ago and in my opinion there was little to be gained by riding the chair (I was against it at the time but my buddies thought it would be cool to do the climb Euro-style). First you have to shell out for the lift ticket, then you wait for the lifts to start operating. Once up the chair, you drop down the first part of K2, and then make a long traverse around Denny Mountain -- it is over a half mile with some up and down and some steep slopes. Unless the snow surface is very firm, you will need a split board or a pair of snowshoes for this. The climb up from below usually has a trail at least as far as the point where you head uphill just before Source Lake, and much of the time there will be a trail all the way. I would think the lift ticket only worth it if there is a lot of new snow, when the traverse might be a lot easier than climbing up through the woods.

A marked trail? Where?

On the "tire chains" thread, W was talking about receiving a call from climbers on Ptarmigan Ridge, asking for some hand-holding from the NPS. By the way, I just checked a map and the wooded spur that I have used as a shortcut when hiking up from the lower portion of the road is actually right about at what is shown on the map as the "North Branch" or "North Fork" of "Big Creek." Anyway, unless the clearcuts are very filled in, you will find easier going beneath the tall trees where there is insufficient light for thick brush to take over.

Thanks for the clarification. Max suggests that jumping off the rock is probably a useful technique only in a sport-climbing situation with vertical to overhanging rock and bolt protection and I would generally agree with this (you certainly wouldn't want to put an unnecessary outward pull on a stopper, and if the rock is less than vertical you are going to be hitting the rock anyway and the jump may only increase the force of your initial collision) but what about the soft catch? I can see how it may lessen the shock to the climber, and to the entire system, and this could be helpful particularly if there wasn't much rope between the climber and belayer, but this too sounds to me like a practice that is generally more useful for sport climbing than other situations. In general, I want my belayer to be reeling in if possible, otherwise I just want them to hold on tight. Comments? As to belaying from the anchor. For years I always tried to belay from my waist, for the reason that Allison suggested. I have gotten used to managing the rope this way, and I believe the extra shock absorption of placing my body in the belay system reduces stress on the anchors. However, now that more and more climbs are being set with bolt anchors at a convenient location, directly above the belay stance, I have begun to change that practice. In this situation, it is probably safer to belay directly off the anchor, so the belayer is not going to be distracted from their belay duties by being themselves yanked in the direction of the force.

quote: Originally posted by Mike Gauthier: get over the bad information syndrome that’s plaguing you. You're right Mike. But the trauma of these past horrors plagues me still. The idea that my own government would lie to me... it's just too terrible to imagine! And the idea that rangers are people too, who might get tired of answering the telephone and don't want me grilling them when I call at 4:30 pm on Friday, just how do you suggest I should cope with this? Its getting better all the time. As I noted earlier in this thread, I find more and more rangers who actually seem to believe it is part of their job to give accurate information to guys like me, and as I have become involved in some trail projects and other access issues I have met some land management types who are really working hard to preserve our recreational lands while promoting public access. But I just can't seem to let go. Do I need therapy?

I'm a little unclear on this idea that you might want to add what sounds to me like extra slack in the system in the event of a fall (the suggestions that you catch the leader gently, or jump up to accomplish the same thing, or whatnot). I want my belayer to arrest the downward movement as quickly as possible and I have never -- no, let me correct that: never ever -- thought that they stopped me too quick (though often the opposite). I know that in the new sport climbing tradition (on vertical or overhanging rock) the leader actually tries to jump away from the rock when they fall to avoid hitting anything and the security of the anchors is generally not in question. Is the idea to absorb some of that away-from-the-rock momentum so as to lessen the crash back toward the rock?

...and call W on your cell phone if you run into trouble.

I have to agree with Nobody that I have been misinformed so many times (and often outright lied to) that I am cynical when it comes to interpreting what I am told by rangers, but more and more I seem to be encountering rangers who are supportive of my recreational fantasies, who actually know their districts, and who give out accurate information. Is it just me, or has there been a bit of a change in the culture within the NPS and FS recreation staff?

Oh yeah, and my descriptions are detailed because I pretty much just make shit up.

The place where I have parked for winter climbs, and where the approach description I just gave starts, is probably about two miles before the lower Ellinor trailhead.

About two weeks ago, Fairweather noted that the Lake Cushman road was currently washed out and I am not sure whether he is referring to the road toward Eldon, or the main road in from Hoodsport (last Summer, I encountered the former being closed due to a washout, but about three weeks ago, climberbro indicated that he was up there attempting a climb and got turned around by whiteout so I am guessing he was able to drive fairly close). I have in the past driven to about the 2,000 foot level on the Mt. Ellinor road during the winter, and Mt. Washington is a reasonable day trip from there. The east face can be a very enjoyable winter climb. After crossing the big creek at about the 2,000 foot level, head up a spur road (very brushy) a couple hundred yards back right and head into the tall timber as soon as possible. If you stay away from the edge of the woods, where there are a lot of blowdowns, the woods are relatively clear of underbrush and it is not too hard to reach the upper road without hiking several miles to get there. Then, you could follow the route I described last summer. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000013

quote: Originally posted by Avatar: Put the axe behind your head, between the shoulder straps, when you begin to climb. If its ice tools, holster them. I often do this when faced with a short bit of rock scrambling or a rappel in the middle of some snow climbing, but be sure to hold onto your ice axe when you stop and take your pack off -- or it will suddenly be completely unattached.

quote: Originally posted by Mike Gauthier: perhaps "lurking" is the better (safer) way to go? But you'd be missing out on all the fun and you could never get to be alpine buddy.

Check out FAQ at the top of this screen, select using HTML/UBB Code, then highlight UBB Code, then read Display Images. You will have to upload your image from a disk to a website.

Here is what I could find on their page: http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/wenatchee/district/distmain.htm

Last night I was watching some of the men's downhill, and they kept said that the course they called "grizzly" had slopes of up to 75 degrees. I listened carefully and they said it at least two or three times. I watched a couple of racers, and there terrain rolls where the course looked as if it might approach 40 degrees but I saw nothing as steep as Snow Creek Wall (I would estimate the latter to be 70-75 degrees).

I've also heard it said that probe poles do not work for probing avalanche debris because the taper is wrong fpr hard-set avalanche debris. This may well be true: if you look at avalanche probes you will notice that they do not have skinny tips tapering toward a fatter middle section. The probe poles make a nice tent pole, though.