mattp

Thanks for your concern, Trask, but can you keep that stuff to yourself? We're trying to hve fun here....

That's nasty, Trask.

Is there a laundromat at Little Si?

It is a big choss heap, and the "rock" on the N. Sister is pretty much to be avoided wherever possible, but its not as bad as all that Philonius. It's a worthy peak that just requires some care to avoid getting beaned or taking the big sled ride.

Participants: GregW, IceIceBaby, Jopa, Mattp Pictures: Results: "Tidbits" at 3:00 rock now stripped of offensive brush on second pitch so the route is good to go. Campsites on Blueberry Hill spur newly trimmed. Crux pitch of West Buttress route (Blueberry Route) on Blueberry Hill cleaned of offensive bush that had to die. Removing the bush restored the route to its original 5.8 rating and one of two bolts on this classic ten pitch trad climb is now slated for removal.

The beta is in the Seattle City code. It's online, and its searchable.

There can be some grey area between aggressive cleaning and outright chipping, but mostly there isn't. If you are pulling off loose flakes and removing dirt and stones from cracks, it is different from actually chipping a hold. Even when being fairly aggressive about it you generally just pull things off or out of cracks and, although you may try to "manufacture" a hold in the sense that you may work to try and pull off only some flakes and not others, the existing cracks dictate what is loose and what is not so you can't completely engineer the outcome (that is why there is construction adhesive behind some flakes at Exit 38). Outright chipping usually leaves behind chisel or drill marks.

I haven't climbed the North Ridge, but I've climbed both the Lava Cleaver and the NW Ridge, and I think the disdain for that "hideous talus" may be a bit overstated here. A slag heap climb up the side of a volcano can be quite enjoyable as long as you are not expecting something else, and it doesn't take an extraordinary amount of care to manage the hazards of rolling rocks on yourself or your buddies. If you are looking for a non-technical route up Mount Adams with a minimal amount of steep snow, the North Ridge is probably not a bad choice -- that's why it has historically been the second most popular route on the mountain.

Aha. I agree that we all need to think about what we are doing and to consider the cumulative impacts of any development or maintenance activities, and et cetera. We also need to recognize that there is also a very definite set of changes that will come about if we do nothing -- trails erode, cracks fill up with dirt and bushes, bolts rust, hangers are stolen .... There will always be differences of opinion as to what is best, as illustrated by Cavey's troll about that tree on the Great Northern Slab or the discussion about a certain tree at the base of Godzilla that took place about a month ago.

Chirp- Are you for real or are you trolling? I've read "the tragedy of the commons" and I like nature and all, and I definitely agree with you on the evils of unmitigated resource extraction ... but we're talking about trimming trees and pulling weeds on a very small scale, and we're advocating doing a careful and clean job of it. To compare that to clear cutting is rediculous. TREES ARE THE ENEMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jacob's Ladder.

TREES ARE THE ENEMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come now, Dwayner. You haven't just issued this challenged on behalf of Richard Simmons and his grandma, but you have said, and you repeated here, that YOU could climb 5.13. I think you may be a little over confident and I (for one) would be impressed to see you climb ANY 5.13 in the State of Washington, given ANY amount of training and rehearsing. Start practicing! As to your use of the word "cowardly," how many times have you carried on about how sport bolters were "bringing the climb down to their level" and how many times have you said how much of a better world this would be if they'd leave the rock alone until they had the balls to climb it.

Stefan - It costs real money to bolt "properly." Stainless steel bolts cost about $2.00 each (or more), powder coated hangers about the same, and proper chains and stuff for belay stations end up costing at least $10.00 per station. That is one of the reasons why you see some funky stuff out there. As to the cost for a given 150 feet of rock, the total would depend on whether that is one pitch or two (some people are advocating 85 foot pitches these days) and how many bolts would be installed. It would cost $22.00 for a 150 foot pitch with three bolts and one belay station, whereas it would cost $120.00 for two 75 foot pitches with body-length bolt intervals and two belay stations. In addition to the installed hardware, a power drill costs $500.00 and the batteries don't last forever. A $6.00 drill bit is generally shot after something in the range of a dozen holes but it can be resharpened to some degree at least.

That sling was there when I did the route ten or more years ago.

Just don't let him get near your guns....

I never had a problem with that tree, and I HAVE had a problem pulling my ropes there before, but I'd have to say that, in general, I applaud anybody who takes it upon themself to clean up bushes and trees that are encroaching on climbs at Index. The Great Northern Slab is a beginner's climbing crag, in what was formerly a quarry. It is not a nature preserve. Did they do a clean job of it?

What do you have to say to my post, Dwayner? As I said, you have some good points to make about the proliferation of bolts and the dumbing down of climbing, but don't you recognize that few are going to listen to you while you preach from your pulpit about your complete contempt for the climbs and the climbing areas that probably 90% of today's climbers enjoy so much - and for the climbers themselves? Don't you think it is a little absurd to proclaim, as you have so many times, that you too could climb 5.13 if you were willing to hangdog like those cowardly chumps that call themselves climbers these days?

Indeed, RuMR. It is a complicated world out there, especially when you start talking about style and ethics.

Stefan may not think you are arguing "for bolts," Peter, but you will be protrayed as "pro bolt" if you are engaged in a debate with the "anti-bolt" faction on cc.com. I'm with you on the call for "honest debate," however, and I'd also like to see more discussions of styles and ethics on this board. Unfortunately, however, both here and in the real world outside of cyberspace we seem generally unable to carry on reasoned discussions about sport vs trad, or bolts vs gear, or old school vs gym climbers. It's just too emotional. Read back through endless threads on cc.com, or talk to someone who has been to a Frenchmen's Coulee Climber's Coalition meeting, or review the history of the bolt wars at various crags around the country and I think it is clear that it is the anti-bolt, anti-sport old-schoolers that are most often responsible for escalating the conflict to the point of absurdity and even occasional violence, but the fact is they have a point: power drilling is too easy and many climbers show no restraint in their bolting practices. These "mad bolters" (myself included) are leaving behind a permanent legacy. In some cases, I think we will look back and say "good job;" in others, "what a shame." Looking at Washington State, there is a big difference in what is happening or has happened at places like Little Si and Washington Pass, Vantage and Darrington, or Icicle Creek and Index. These are all crag climbing areas, and all have historically seen both ground-up and top-down route development, of both "trad" and "sport" lines. Pope and Dwayner seem to suggest that, when it comes to bolted face climbing, its all shameless cowardly and aid unless somebody put it up on lead in traditional style. I respect their opinion as to what is good style, but I doubt there have been very many worthwhile new crag climbs put up in that traditional style in the last ten years at any of these crags. There have been a few perhaps, but a tiny number when compared to the number of excellent routes that have been established in the style that the old schoolers dismiss as completely worthless. Apart from any focus on the first ascent method, I bet 90% of today's climbers will flat out reject the suggestion that the existence of rap-bolted lines at Index, Washington Pass or Darrington (or a trend toward an increased acceptance of rap-bolting) have turned these areas into something akin to Vantage -- for most, the differences are just too great to even for a moment consider there may be some truth to these assertions. I appreciate the suggestion that we as a climbing community examine the impact of our bolting practices, our crag development methods in general, and the impact on our sport that comes from a whole generation of climbers that come from gyms, where bouldering and climbing competitions are a major focus. The old schooler's are right when they tell us that bolting has gotten out of control, or that it is a very different thing to lead an unknown climb from the ground up than it is to pre-inspect and scrub and bolt it on rappel. But to state that "sport climbing is neither" just makes somebody sound like a dinosaur.

I've been using the EDK without a problem for 20 years. I always dress it carefully so that the strands perfectly parallel each other without any twists, and and I pull it tight from both ends. I also leave tails at least 10" long. The double fisherman's can be very hard to untie after multiple rappels.

I think that'd be correct, Rodchester, that a "30 degree bag" stuffed with 900 fill down would be lighter and more compactable than one stuffed with 650 fill -- all other things being equal. However, I bet most of the difference in the weight of two different 30-degree bags lies in the weight of the fabric shell, the zippers, and the overall cut of the bag.

I think "worst route ever" is a little extreme for Mt. Maude, Erik, but it certainliy is far from the classic that so many people make it out to be -- and it is not an ice climb, either. Even in September.

That's right. He's going to get an early start on the program this weekend, aren't you Greg!

Narrow Arrow overhang, and perhaps Narrow Arrow Direct (I don't remember which climb that is) are OK. Narrow Arrow climbs a corner of dirty stacked up blocks for the first pitch - and it has been many years since I've been on it but I thought it was one of the scariest things I found at Index. People choose it for its rating (5.7), but I don't think I've ever heard anybody come away from it with anything good to say about it.