mattp

I believe that Dave is right that the borders are now closed with the SARS thing. For Cho Oyu, the peak fee was not all that much as of a few years ago -- you'll spend much more in airfare, other travel expenses, visa, etc.... and of course your time away from work has to be factored in. I don't disagree with others' suggestions that it might be a good idea to choose a slightly more modest objective for one's first trip over there, but there have been plenty of people that went to Cho Oyu for their first Asian peak climb and did OK. In many respects, it is not all that different from going to Alaska and attempting Mr. Mckinley for one's first climb there. Consider that at just shy of 27,000 feet, though, Cho Oyu is in the death zone. A significant number of people die just because they are there without any real accident or mishap whatsoever.

Yes, I've climbed Burgundy as a day trip too. It was not a long day. The camping is nice up there, though.

I went to Cho Oyu four or five years ago, and although it was exciting to be there, I began the expedition with both intestinal problems and a lung infection and although it was not a guided trip, I relied upon the outfitter to take care of food planning and that was a mistake. As a result of these factors and the fact that I had difficulty acclimating even to the base camp elevation (at nearly 19,000 feet, I think it is one of the highest base camps for any peak) I never made it above camp 2. I learned a few things, though, and I'd like to go back again some time. A trip to Cho Oyu involves a lot of logistical planning and permits and such that an outfitter will probably be able to handle better than you can, but a climb of the normal route up Cho Oyu is certainly not all that difficult in a technical sense and plenty of self-guided parties do OK. Whether they acknowledge this or not, though, most of them are relying upon other organized expetitions to help them out in the event that even the slightest thing goes wrong, and this may be a poor game plan. Whatever you decide to do, Cho Oyu is one of the most popular of the big peaks and you should easily be able to locate quite a few people who have been there, and been there recently -- talk to as many people as you can before you decide how to plan your trip.

Climbing Silver Star via Burgundy col is not a long day. I've skied it twice, going up Burgundy and down Silver Star. We didn't start early, maintained a leisurely pace, and were back to the car by 4:00 or maybe 5:00 both times.

Once we decided to leave, I told them they were welcome to move on in. Sorry if you think I was a little too generous there, Klenke, but I don't think they really got in our way packing up. It shows you just what a badass Mr. Beck is, though: even after he had left he had 20 kids out standing in the rain while four or five of us took our time deciding to leave...

Beck: "You heading to the wrong picnic shelter, punk?" Punk: "huh, what?" Don't mess with him. You've been warned.

You might be surprised. Just because we spew a bunch of juvenile rhetoric all over the internet all day long, don't assume we'er all immature.

You're right. He's known for being a genious, isn't he?

No kidding! Read "Blinded by the Right." From day one, the right-wing attack dogs were looking for ways to bring Clinton down, including multiple sex scandals (some of which were never substantiated at all), accusing him of running dope (not substantiated), troopergate (story supported only by two paid witnesses), Vincent Foster's alleged murder (even Rush Limbaugh probably didn't believe this though he kept hammering away with it), and a Federal probe into Whitewater (they concluded there was no indication that Bill or Hilary were involved in any wrongdoing). After six or eight years of this, they had still found nothing to use against him except that he couldn't keep his zipper closed. Finally, they set a trap for him and got him to lie in a deposition. What might seven years of investigations into GWBush and company reveal?

You are right about the "corruption of minds" that flows from partisan politics. Those repubs are indeed some sick and corrupt bastards!

Yo Fence: why do you keep throwing this "Kosovo" thing at us? Did Clinton lie about what we were doing in Kosovo? I bet he did. But how is that supposed to justify Bush's doing the same? Is there any comparison in the degree of world-wide animosity against the U.S. sparked by the bombing in Kosovo and that sparked by our invasion of Iraq? How does Clinton's lying about how many people were brutally murdered in Kosovo (if he did) compare with Bush's lying that we were threatened by Iraq (if he did)? Last I checked, Clinton was out of office. How does your hatred of Bill Clinton factor in to how I should view today's actions? Are we supposed to blindly accept whatever foreign invasion our government proposes, and jump in line behind the flag, without asking questions? Is that what you call freedom and democracy?

Traditionally, most people have thought that September is the season for the ice faces. August may actually be a little early for them-meaning they'll have more snow and less ice.

Not necessarily.

4300 may not be way overboard for general mountaineering. There will be plenty of times when you will want to fill it up AND hang stuff all over the outside. The main thing is to try them on and to try to get one that fits you correctly, though standing in the store for five minutes is not the same as carrying it all day even if you load it up with sand bags. Also, be sure the pack isn't so wide that it interferes with moving your arms around, and be sure the frame stays won't prevent you from tipping your head back to look up with a helmet on. Consider trying one on a demo basis if that is an option. I would agree that you are better off going to Pro Mountain Sports or Feathered Friends than REI for pack fitting advice and, if you are going to Vancouver, check out MEC. If you are willing to spend a little extra cash I would highly recommend McHale. I am sure I'll be flamed for this but I'll add that for mountaineering, when you are carrying camping equipment, warm clothing, climbing gear, and food, the empty weight of a pack is not something to stress over. The main advantage of a simpler pack is just that -- it is simpler. Less stuff to catch on the brush that guards many Cascade climbs, less zippers and doo-dads that fail, and less in the way when you want to lash on things that don't fit the specific doo-dads. An extra one or two pounds in empty pack weight is well worth it if the pack is going to perform better and, with most of the loads you are going to carry, you won't notice the difference in weight but you WILL notice the difference in how different packs carry.

Kiwi- Klenke is 6'6", 275 pounds, and has long hair. The secret handshake is the closed fist with an extended middle finger, and the password is "hey you!"

Opinions will vary, but I think an alpine climbing pack should not have a frame that towers over your head, though an extension sleeve and a top flap that rises to accommodate an overloaded pack are a plus. I also think the old-style smaller and more flexible waist belt is preferable, though many people think they gotta have the more popular foam-filled self-standing waist belts; if you get one of these, it should at the very least be removable if you're going to use the pack for technical climbs. I've never noticed ultra-curved shoulder straps to be more comfortable than straight ones -- far more important is the distance between the attachment points at the shoulder and the distance between top and bottom attach points. Look for a single-compartment, top-loader, with minimal or no outside pockets. Extra long side constricting straps are handy for adding skis, sleeping pads or whatever, and bar tacked lash straps running up the back will provide plenty of lash points but, in my view, you should look for a pack with minimal wand pockets, shovel slots, rear pockets, side pockets, tool tubes, crampon patches, etc. I don't think aerodynamic back padding or multiple textures with special non-slip material on the waist part the pack are much of a plus, and an easily adjustable harness that allows you to quickly move the shoulder straps up and down is probably just a source of potential failure. After the first time you adjust your pack, you will probably never touch the adjustment again. I'll admit that my pack looks like a yard-sale much or the time, and I'll acknowledge that lots of people think that those specific attachments for crampons, ice tools, snow shovel, or wands are essential, but I like to be able to lash things on as makes sense given the particular combination of toys that I have on a particular outing and, given that view, all the extra pockets and special use straps complicate rather than facilitate the attachment of skis, ice tools, ropes, sleeping pads, or odd things like the occasional lawn chair or a polaski, that pair of plastic mountaineering boots that you don't want to wear on the long approach hike, or maybe a coleman stove for a group kitchen. If your ice tools HAVE to go on the middle rear of your pack, and the skis HAVE to go on the sides, and the crampons HAVE to go on top, you may find it clumsy to add these odd items or that extra sleeping pad or the rope that you want to have accessible for that stream-crossing a mile from the trailhead.

Thanks, TLG. See you there.

Like he said: I'm not allowed to have an opinion? (I thought we were just wasting time at work.)

If you're looking more for alpine rock routes, as opposed to true alpine climbs (your hit list looks that way), I would recommend the Bugaboos over the Rockies. The rock is much better and, assuming the weather is good, you will do a lot more climbing because it is all accessible from one camp. Also, I do not think the approach to the NE Ridge of Bugaboo could be described as long -- you rope up no more than 4 or 5 hours from the car and it is probably easier to get to and from than half of those on your initial tick list. For alpine rock, the Bugaboos rock. For alpine grandeur, the rockies offer some real mountain ambience that feels more like the world's high mountain ranges than the Bugs, but you will have to be prepared for more loose rock, more complex descents, more carry-overs, and other mountaineering challenges that are minimized in the Bugaboos. AlpineK notes some good and relatively moderate alpine routes.

Yeah, the North Ridge is a sport-climb since somebody added those bolts at the rappel station. I was thinking that now that the floodgates are open, I'd go bolt the entire thing. Who wants to run it out on those unprotected hand-traversses that are at least 5.0???

Adams is 12,000 feet high, but you do not spend enough time at high elevation for most people to become ill. Yes, I know that some folks feel symptoms as low as 8,000 feet and maybe lower, and I know that there have been cases of cerebral edema at elvations no higher than Mount Adams, but you can easily climb Adams in a day or, if not, the typical north side basecamp is at somewhere around 6,000 feet and although I am sure it has happend to somebody, I have never heard of anybody suffering significant symptoms at that elevation. I have altitude issues when climbing Mount Rainier, but have never had any trouble on Adams. By the way, some folks complain about the garbage rock on the North Ridge, but I think it is a good choice. I also have enjoyed the Lava Cleaver and the Northwest Ridge, though both have quite a bit of crappy talus and more exposure than the North Ridge.

Ken- Don't worry about the 6" crack on Backbone -- the rock is no more than 60 degrees at that point, the crack is in a corner so you can stem off to the side, and the pitch is really not all that hard. I HAVE done Backbone, and we climbed "the fin." I thought it was a good but not great climb. All these climbs are worthwhile, it's just that in my view there are better routes around than these two popular "arete's" on Dragontail. They are both long and contain a lot of scrambling in addition to several good pitches. Although both are called "arete's," neither is on a classic knife-edged arete. Neither has a really classic top-out, and although Dragontail is one of the highest peaks in the range and has great views, it is not a classic pointy mountain summit. It is a different thing, of course (shorter and steeper), but I think the S. Face of Prussik is ten times more classic as a rock climb. Also, I'm not sure where JoshK is coming from when he says the N. Ridge is not as much fun as Serpentine -- that upper gully he complains about is nasty for something like 40 feet and then you exit right to begin scrambling on terrain that I am sure is no more nasty than some of what you would encounter on the Serpentine and certainly no more nasty than the loose rock you will encounter on 90% of the alpine rock climbs in this world. Before that, the upper N. Ridge has nearly a thousand feet of climbing that is clean, solid, and way up high in the sky with better exposure and closer views of glaciers than anything you find on Dragontail. Also, the summit of Stuart is in my view a cooler place than Dragontail, though part of what makes me say this is the fact that it is a little more difficult to get down from Stuart. To many climbers this factor dictates a checkmark in the minus column rather than the plus column, but I like the challenges of mountain climbing (and descent) as much as I like rock climbing. Anyway, they are all good and have fun. You are definitely on the right track when you say you're going to go for whatever climb your partner will agree to tackle.

Ken4ord- You were asking about classics last week. Serpentine is a good climb that is technically moderate, but I think it falls short of "classic" status. I haven't done it but by all accounts it has a few good pitches and lots of climbing that is not all that memorable, and the "arete" is not really a classic arete like many other routes. (I'm sure my peers will be quick to correct me on this.) Go for one of the ridges on Forbidden, or the upper N. ridge of Stuart, or NE buttress of Goode or...

Don't expect this if you go to the Canadian Rockies.