mattp

10(a) handcrack:

Distel, I would agree that a gentle word to the wise might be warranted if the weather forecast is bad but, like Rodchester, my experience over the years has been that rangers have generally told me all kinds of B.S. in order to discourage me from setting out on a climb. I am not inclined to complain about it if the Mount Rainier rangers actually know what they are talking about (I think both the Mr. G's that I know who are rangers there do) and if they are encouraging. Also, I'm sure that most climbers don't want to hear from the ranger that the weather forecast is bad because many of us have "authority issues" and most will have already checked the weather report and if we are there, we have decided to try the climb anyway. If there was a sudden change in the weather report and he thought it might have been different from what you probably heard when you left your house in the morning, I am sure he would have told you about it. But it was really not his responsibility to do so.

Of course, this assumes you actually remove the face place. If you are like most people I know, you'll do it religiously for the first month or two that you have the thing, and then pretty soon you'll start forgetting about it.

I hate to be contrary here, Distel, but I guess I'm just in the mood to pick apart whatever anybody says. I think Mr. G. should expect that anybody going to climb Mount Rainier has checked the weather report and that if they ask anything at all about conditions they are asking about on-the-ground conditions like the trail, stream crossings, crevasses, etc. I wouldn't think it irresponsible or misleading for him to say "conditions are great" if that is what they were. Had he told you "the weather forecast is poor, you know," you'd be likely to come here and complain on this board that he was trying to scare you away from the mountain where you have a god-given right to climb.

Repo, Blackstone and AWOL are the "British Aisles." I suggest these because there are more moderate climbs in this area than there are over at WWI, most are based on the ground rather than a ledge where Dwayner might fall off after drinking his Mickey's, and there is an easy way to hike up top for a view. more of the online guide

The British Aisles and immediately adjacent crags offer routes from 5.7 to 5.12b or so, lead or toprope, and there are a couple which have some crack climbing though it is mostly face. It is not quite as close to the car as the main wall at Exit 38, but in my view it is nicer although there isn't a railroad bed to hang out on. I think the parking lot may be less prone to vandalism, too. Directions to the parking area are here: on-line guide (partial) From the parking lot, hike up the trail, and stay on the main path at several forks (almost all have signs and arrows saying which way to "Little Si"). After 15 or 20 minutes, the trail climbs over a rocky rib, then drops slightly and enters a clearing. At a second small clearing, an initially indistinct trail heading left goes up a series of stone steps to reach the crags at Blackstone and Repo (the first of the "British Aisles"). If you miss the turn and stay on the main trail, you will quickly start up a small hill with switch-backs and the cliff will become visible on the left. At this point, you've gone too far but you can turn around and look for a trail forking left that heads up to meet the cliffs a couple hundred yards north of the previously noted access trail. The password: Hey You!!!! Secret Handshake: Middle finger.

Lots of people seem confused about the difference between wind-chill and actual temperature, Josh. I was impressed that the story didn't mention their having been stupid or inept or having taken unnecessary risks and it didn't sensationalize the whole thing. It seems to me that the blood-sucking media whores that some here complain about must have taken the day off when this article was written.

Hans - Is it the fact that one of them dialed "911" that you take as an indicator that they "couldn't deal?" So far, we have heard that (1) the weather was good enough that at least some parties got up and down OK, (2) they had and used a GPS but whoever did so may not have entered a waypoint at the bridge over the 'Schrund, (3) they got down under their own power, (4) injuries were minimal, and (5) they weren't even delayed very long. Again, I don't know what happened and they may well have been idiots, but it sounds to me as if they were reasonably well-prepared for what they encountered (better than most parties who get caught in storm weather at 13,000 feet, I bet), and they got themselves down. Too bad they didn't call 911 a second time to say they were on their way down, though.

I once climbed the Kloke route in the Fall. The initial pitch over the bergschrund was on steep, loose and unprotected rock that was covered with dirt, but the ice climbing on the face itself was OK. The descent down the south side was quite steep, and the rock was about as crumbly as anything that might be called "rock" -- much of it was really more like hardened dirt puctuated by "outcrops" of crumbling garbage. I'd say it rivals even the Canadian Rockies for junk factor but overall I thought the climb was worth while.

Are you guys thinking that they would not have attempted the climb if they had not been carrying a cell phone? If that is the case, I might agree with JoshK about their mental capacity. In what manner were they "unable to deal?" They called uncle, apparently, but most of us would say it is a good idea to call for help if you are in a bad situation and you have a cell phone. But it sounds as if they in fact DID deal. They got their asses kicked, but nobody was carried off the mountain, were they? Did somebody get frostbite? If they did, is that a clear indication of a party that "can't deal?" What is the standard here, by which we should judge YOUR next epic? I'm not saying it was a good weekend to go up to Mount Rainier -- I wouldn't have headed up there this weekend. But the forecast I heard was not as dire as JoskK indicates and I really don't know what happened other than that nine people attempted to climb Mount Raininer in poor weather, hunkered down for a day or so, and staggered back down to Schurman. What more does anybody know about it?

I thought you'd like Little Si, Dwayner. Ever been there? It is really quite beautiful in those woods and there's even a couple of crack climbs -- one of them doesn't even have any bolts on it! Come on out and play.

How 'bout a pub-club field trip to Little Si in honor of the Solstice?

Just try getting out of line, Syj, and we'll see. By the way - I think it'll be cool if they're still celebrating Octoberfest while we are there. Maybe we can get an Oompah band to come out and play a matinee at the campground or something....

I didn't read the newspaper or watch the news, so I know nothing about it. But from what little I've heard about the incident, it sounds like they went up despite a poor forecast, hunkered down and suffered for a day or so, and then made their way back down to Camp Schurman. Did a ranger go up and escort them down or something? From my ignorant perspective, it sounds to me as if you folks who rant about how stupid they must have been probably don't know much more about it than I do, and I bet some of you have done equally "dumb" things at some point in your climbing careers. Some people stay at home until they get a perfect weather report, and then they rely upon that weather report to go "fast and light" without carrying storm clothing or bivvy gear. That could be said to be at least as stupid as going up in poor weather with sufficient gear to hunker down and wait for clearing. Go ahead and flame me, because I've already admitted I really don't know what I'm talking about.

Don't forget my other wife, Vee.

I believe that Dave is right that the borders are now closed with the SARS thing. For Cho Oyu, the peak fee was not all that much as of a few years ago -- you'll spend much more in airfare, other travel expenses, visa, etc.... and of course your time away from work has to be factored in. I don't disagree with others' suggestions that it might be a good idea to choose a slightly more modest objective for one's first trip over there, but there have been plenty of people that went to Cho Oyu for their first Asian peak climb and did OK. In many respects, it is not all that different from going to Alaska and attempting Mr. Mckinley for one's first climb there. Consider that at just shy of 27,000 feet, though, Cho Oyu is in the death zone. A significant number of people die just because they are there without any real accident or mishap whatsoever.

Yes, I've climbed Burgundy as a day trip too. It was not a long day. The camping is nice up there, though.

I went to Cho Oyu four or five years ago, and although it was exciting to be there, I began the expedition with both intestinal problems and a lung infection and although it was not a guided trip, I relied upon the outfitter to take care of food planning and that was a mistake. As a result of these factors and the fact that I had difficulty acclimating even to the base camp elevation (at nearly 19,000 feet, I think it is one of the highest base camps for any peak) I never made it above camp 2. I learned a few things, though, and I'd like to go back again some time. A trip to Cho Oyu involves a lot of logistical planning and permits and such that an outfitter will probably be able to handle better than you can, but a climb of the normal route up Cho Oyu is certainly not all that difficult in a technical sense and plenty of self-guided parties do OK. Whether they acknowledge this or not, though, most of them are relying upon other organized expetitions to help them out in the event that even the slightest thing goes wrong, and this may be a poor game plan. Whatever you decide to do, Cho Oyu is one of the most popular of the big peaks and you should easily be able to locate quite a few people who have been there, and been there recently -- talk to as many people as you can before you decide how to plan your trip.

Climbing Silver Star via Burgundy col is not a long day. I've skied it twice, going up Burgundy and down Silver Star. We didn't start early, maintained a leisurely pace, and were back to the car by 4:00 or maybe 5:00 both times.

Once we decided to leave, I told them they were welcome to move on in. Sorry if you think I was a little too generous there, Klenke, but I don't think they really got in our way packing up. It shows you just what a badass Mr. Beck is, though: even after he had left he had 20 kids out standing in the rain while four or five of us took our time deciding to leave...

Beck: "You heading to the wrong picnic shelter, punk?" Punk: "huh, what?" Don't mess with him. You've been warned.

You might be surprised. Just because we spew a bunch of juvenile rhetoric all over the internet all day long, don't assume we'er all immature.

You're right. He's known for being a genious, isn't he?

No kidding! Read "Blinded by the Right." From day one, the right-wing attack dogs were looking for ways to bring Clinton down, including multiple sex scandals (some of which were never substantiated at all), accusing him of running dope (not substantiated), troopergate (story supported only by two paid witnesses), Vincent Foster's alleged murder (even Rush Limbaugh probably didn't believe this though he kept hammering away with it), and a Federal probe into Whitewater (they concluded there was no indication that Bill or Hilary were involved in any wrongdoing). After six or eight years of this, they had still found nothing to use against him except that he couldn't keep his zipper closed. Finally, they set a trap for him and got him to lie in a deposition. What might seven years of investigations into GWBush and company reveal?