mattp

You are right about the "corruption of minds" that flows from partisan politics. Those repubs are indeed some sick and corrupt bastards!

Yo Fence: why do you keep throwing this "Kosovo" thing at us? Did Clinton lie about what we were doing in Kosovo? I bet he did. But how is that supposed to justify Bush's doing the same? Is there any comparison in the degree of world-wide animosity against the U.S. sparked by the bombing in Kosovo and that sparked by our invasion of Iraq? How does Clinton's lying about how many people were brutally murdered in Kosovo (if he did) compare with Bush's lying that we were threatened by Iraq (if he did)? Last I checked, Clinton was out of office. How does your hatred of Bill Clinton factor in to how I should view today's actions? Are we supposed to blindly accept whatever foreign invasion our government proposes, and jump in line behind the flag, without asking questions? Is that what you call freedom and democracy?

Traditionally, most people have thought that September is the season for the ice faces. August may actually be a little early for them-meaning they'll have more snow and less ice.

Not necessarily.

4300 may not be way overboard for general mountaineering. There will be plenty of times when you will want to fill it up AND hang stuff all over the outside. The main thing is to try them on and to try to get one that fits you correctly, though standing in the store for five minutes is not the same as carrying it all day even if you load it up with sand bags. Also, be sure the pack isn't so wide that it interferes with moving your arms around, and be sure the frame stays won't prevent you from tipping your head back to look up with a helmet on. Consider trying one on a demo basis if that is an option. I would agree that you are better off going to Pro Mountain Sports or Feathered Friends than REI for pack fitting advice and, if you are going to Vancouver, check out MEC. If you are willing to spend a little extra cash I would highly recommend McHale. I am sure I'll be flamed for this but I'll add that for mountaineering, when you are carrying camping equipment, warm clothing, climbing gear, and food, the empty weight of a pack is not something to stress over. The main advantage of a simpler pack is just that -- it is simpler. Less stuff to catch on the brush that guards many Cascade climbs, less zippers and doo-dads that fail, and less in the way when you want to lash on things that don't fit the specific doo-dads. An extra one or two pounds in empty pack weight is well worth it if the pack is going to perform better and, with most of the loads you are going to carry, you won't notice the difference in weight but you WILL notice the difference in how different packs carry.

Kiwi- Klenke is 6'6", 275 pounds, and has long hair. The secret handshake is the closed fist with an extended middle finger, and the password is "hey you!"

Opinions will vary, but I think an alpine climbing pack should not have a frame that towers over your head, though an extension sleeve and a top flap that rises to accommodate an overloaded pack are a plus. I also think the old-style smaller and more flexible waist belt is preferable, though many people think they gotta have the more popular foam-filled self-standing waist belts; if you get one of these, it should at the very least be removable if you're going to use the pack for technical climbs. I've never noticed ultra-curved shoulder straps to be more comfortable than straight ones -- far more important is the distance between the attachment points at the shoulder and the distance between top and bottom attach points. Look for a single-compartment, top-loader, with minimal or no outside pockets. Extra long side constricting straps are handy for adding skis, sleeping pads or whatever, and bar tacked lash straps running up the back will provide plenty of lash points but, in my view, you should look for a pack with minimal wand pockets, shovel slots, rear pockets, side pockets, tool tubes, crampon patches, etc. I don't think aerodynamic back padding or multiple textures with special non-slip material on the waist part the pack are much of a plus, and an easily adjustable harness that allows you to quickly move the shoulder straps up and down is probably just a source of potential failure. After the first time you adjust your pack, you will probably never touch the adjustment again. I'll admit that my pack looks like a yard-sale much or the time, and I'll acknowledge that lots of people think that those specific attachments for crampons, ice tools, snow shovel, or wands are essential, but I like to be able to lash things on as makes sense given the particular combination of toys that I have on a particular outing and, given that view, all the extra pockets and special use straps complicate rather than facilitate the attachment of skis, ice tools, ropes, sleeping pads, or odd things like the occasional lawn chair or a polaski, that pair of plastic mountaineering boots that you don't want to wear on the long approach hike, or maybe a coleman stove for a group kitchen. If your ice tools HAVE to go on the middle rear of your pack, and the skis HAVE to go on the sides, and the crampons HAVE to go on top, you may find it clumsy to add these odd items or that extra sleeping pad or the rope that you want to have accessible for that stream-crossing a mile from the trailhead.

Thanks, TLG. See you there.

Like he said: I'm not allowed to have an opinion? (I thought we were just wasting time at work.)

If you're looking more for alpine rock routes, as opposed to true alpine climbs (your hit list looks that way), I would recommend the Bugaboos over the Rockies. The rock is much better and, assuming the weather is good, you will do a lot more climbing because it is all accessible from one camp. Also, I do not think the approach to the NE Ridge of Bugaboo could be described as long -- you rope up no more than 4 or 5 hours from the car and it is probably easier to get to and from than half of those on your initial tick list. For alpine rock, the Bugaboos rock. For alpine grandeur, the rockies offer some real mountain ambience that feels more like the world's high mountain ranges than the Bugs, but you will have to be prepared for more loose rock, more complex descents, more carry-overs, and other mountaineering challenges that are minimized in the Bugaboos. AlpineK notes some good and relatively moderate alpine routes.

Yeah, the North Ridge is a sport-climb since somebody added those bolts at the rappel station. I was thinking that now that the floodgates are open, I'd go bolt the entire thing. Who wants to run it out on those unprotected hand-traversses that are at least 5.0???

Adams is 12,000 feet high, but you do not spend enough time at high elevation for most people to become ill. Yes, I know that some folks feel symptoms as low as 8,000 feet and maybe lower, and I know that there have been cases of cerebral edema at elvations no higher than Mount Adams, but you can easily climb Adams in a day or, if not, the typical north side basecamp is at somewhere around 6,000 feet and although I am sure it has happend to somebody, I have never heard of anybody suffering significant symptoms at that elevation. I have altitude issues when climbing Mount Rainier, but have never had any trouble on Adams. By the way, some folks complain about the garbage rock on the North Ridge, but I think it is a good choice. I also have enjoyed the Lava Cleaver and the Northwest Ridge, though both have quite a bit of crappy talus and more exposure than the North Ridge.

Ken- Don't worry about the 6" crack on Backbone -- the rock is no more than 60 degrees at that point, the crack is in a corner so you can stem off to the side, and the pitch is really not all that hard. I HAVE done Backbone, and we climbed "the fin." I thought it was a good but not great climb. All these climbs are worthwhile, it's just that in my view there are better routes around than these two popular "arete's" on Dragontail. They are both long and contain a lot of scrambling in addition to several good pitches. Although both are called "arete's," neither is on a classic knife-edged arete. Neither has a really classic top-out, and although Dragontail is one of the highest peaks in the range and has great views, it is not a classic pointy mountain summit. It is a different thing, of course (shorter and steeper), but I think the S. Face of Prussik is ten times more classic as a rock climb. Also, I'm not sure where JoshK is coming from when he says the N. Ridge is not as much fun as Serpentine -- that upper gully he complains about is nasty for something like 40 feet and then you exit right to begin scrambling on terrain that I am sure is no more nasty than some of what you would encounter on the Serpentine and certainly no more nasty than the loose rock you will encounter on 90% of the alpine rock climbs in this world. Before that, the upper N. Ridge has nearly a thousand feet of climbing that is clean, solid, and way up high in the sky with better exposure and closer views of glaciers than anything you find on Dragontail. Also, the summit of Stuart is in my view a cooler place than Dragontail, though part of what makes me say this is the fact that it is a little more difficult to get down from Stuart. To many climbers this factor dictates a checkmark in the minus column rather than the plus column, but I like the challenges of mountain climbing (and descent) as much as I like rock climbing. Anyway, they are all good and have fun. You are definitely on the right track when you say you're going to go for whatever climb your partner will agree to tackle.

Ken4ord- You were asking about classics last week. Serpentine is a good climb that is technically moderate, but I think it falls short of "classic" status. I haven't done it but by all accounts it has a few good pitches and lots of climbing that is not all that memorable, and the "arete" is not really a classic arete like many other routes. (I'm sure my peers will be quick to correct me on this.) Go for one of the ridges on Forbidden, or the upper N. ridge of Stuart, or NE buttress of Goode or...

Don't expect this if you go to the Canadian Rockies.

You might also check to see if they have some used ones for sale at Second Bounce (a seattle used-gear store), or show up at a pubclub on a tuesday night and see what you can borrow. If your friends are able to spring some $ for a pitcher or three, they might ingratiate theirselves with somebody like myself who has an extra axe at home.

Thanks, Dave. If I am at pubclub tomorrow night, you can hand off the sign then though last time I posted it when I got there to set up for the event. Lets hope it is nice on Thursday -- we were robbed of our great Mt. Rainier view last time.

I have used a "handline" lots of times when climbing with groups of varying ability. The more compfident climber sets the rope and the others simply hang onto it or they may use a harness and clip theirselves into it using a short runner and locking 'biner (or two) as if it were a via ferrata. (Don't start that fall factor and dynamic vs static stuff, you guys -- hand lines are usually used in places that may be exposed or loose but are barely technical and hence not steep enough to generate large fall forces.) In this application, the handline may be tied to rock-climbing anchors, buried ice axes (deadman style) or rocks or trees, and should be securely anchored at both ends, and perhaps in the middle or at multiple intermediate points. At intermediate anchors, the handline should be tied directly to the anchor or to a carabiner clipped to a sling leading to the anchor (a locking biner or pair of biners reverssed is preferrable here). Use a figure eight or (perhaps better) a butterfly knot -- rather than simply running the rope through a 'biner -- so each segment of the handline is a separate and isolated segment -- and do not "loop it through a sling like a rope." (Of course, you should generally not loop a rope through a sling, either.) Another place where I've used hand lines is in crossing rivers. In this application you definitely DO NOT clip anybody to it because a person held by a rope will be dragged under if they lose their footing in the middle of rapid stream. I know that "light is right" is the style these days, but if you are going to hang onto a rope, I bet most people will prefer to hang onto a 10 or 11 mm piece of cord than an 8 mm one. Dependng on what you are doing, who is going to be hanging on to it, and how many people are in your group, the extra weight may well be worth it and a retired lead rope, or half of one, will probably work just fine. In canyons, a haul-line/rappel rope comes in very handy and if you are going to go of-trail hiking in Canyonlands or some place like that, I probably would take the 30m piece of 8mm cord Catbird suggests.

Dave- I respect your willingness to stick with it here and, depite your defensiveness, it is obvious to me that you have thought about these issues and are trying to do a good job. It sounds to me, too, as if you may realize that you have "overbolted" some climbs or "overdeveloped" some crags compared to what might be some ill-defined mid-point along the spectrum of what different members of the "climbing community" think is acceptable. If that is so, remove some unnecessary bolts or perhaps even an unsightly route or two and patch the holes before you start on your next project. Maintaining good relationships with and between climbers of varying interests and abilities is just as important as maintaining good relationships with the land managers. Thumbs up for sticking with it.

Tricky, it sounds to me as if, after you traverssed from the belay, you found the fingercrack that the Traveller's guide notes has not been freed (as far as I know). It goes over a bulge that is perhaps ten feet high, and maybe 20 feet above the belay. Flared tips. There used to be a knob conveniently located so as to allow one to pull over the bulge without having to climb the crack, but it broke off after one or two ascents. Way to stick with it! Most parties fail on their first attempt to climb Dreamer, even if they don't get off route.

Not only that, but you made the right call. Whatever you might put in the foot of your bivvy sack can just as easily spend the night in a garbage bag outside.

For no good reason other than to stir up ill will between Tacoma and Seattle, I will note that the Tacoma folks were pretty damn quick to blow their wad. I left at 10:30, so who am I to talk, but by that time all the Tacoma folks had come and gone. Dwayner was there less than an hour; and Erik, Jonathan, and Sjy-whatever-his-name-is had already left, Figger Nine had left, Roger had made his guest appearance, and the only Tacoma denizen still gracing our presence was Fast Eddie. Eddie's cool, but what's up with the rest of those Tacoma folks??????? In Seattle, we stay out 'till at least 10:45.

You are right, RB, that "medical experts" on either side of most any litigation are not hired to be impartial. One might argue that our legal system, based on adversarial presentations by two opposing sides, prosecutor vs. defense, or plaintiff vs defendant, is messed up. However, we're not talking about litigation here. We're talking about a simple contract. You pay an insurance company - in advance - so that they'll pay your medical bills when you get injured in a car accident. As soon as you file your claim, they throw at you a whole staff of people all trained to cheat you -- and if you want to have your medical treatment paid for (as they promised to do) you HAVE to hire an attorney. Question: how many people posting to this thread or people that you know have set out to defraud an insurance company by filing false or exaggerated claims? How many have had their legitimate claims chipped away at or downright denied because they didn't, as Erik put it, "have their ducks in a row?" How many have had their rates jacked up, or their policies cancelled, after filing claims which resulted from accidents which were not their fault? (This latter practice is against the law in Washington, by the way, but they do it all the time.) Oh yes. I don't practice as a plaintiff's attorney, but I think Glasgow has probably identified the worst offenders in this arena when he names Allstate and Farmers. They DO suck.

You tell 'em Glasgow. It is bad enough that they have bogus IME's whose job it is to find minimal injuries and recommend less medical treatment, but it is completely criminal that they suspend payment for treatment while waiting for their paid liar to to that job.

More than one party has opted for one of these strategies, and found theirselves out for an extra night. One pair I used to know found the climb more serious than they had expected, and they didn't even make it back on day three! Don't underestimate Mt. Stu.