mattp

I can't tell if there's much interest in climbing tonight. Every week, there's no shortage of enthusiasm for arguing about where to drink beer, though, and lots of you have time to hang out in the pub for several hours every tuesday. It's damn near the longest day of the year, people. And we can drink beer in the woods (not before, but after belaying TLG) or go to town for some pizza and beer afterward!!! Maybe they're right, we are a bunch of drunks that like to talk about climbing rather than climbing.

Sorry to offend you Ryland. I understand the usefulness of wands and I promise I won't laugh at you but they are not any panacea. In my opinion, they are really no more reliable than a GPS because the key wands may blow over in a windstorm and you'd have to have way many of them to mark the entire route to the summit and back so even if you mark the key places, you can still wander around in the fog and if you get snowfall or blowing snow with your fog, you still have to be able to navigate. As often as not they end up just being more stuff to haul up and down and, if they are used, they frequently end up left behind as trash that may or may not mark the right way for subsequent parties. I do not know if a few wands at the key crevasse would have made any difference this past weekend.

What's the issue?

Skepticism and hindsite analysis are valuable. Particularly when it comes to a public or semi-public discussion of mountain rescues, though, uninformed flammage and personal sniping should be avoided.

I can't leave before 4:00 or close to 4:00, but I'd take a couple riders from Ballard/Fremont. By the way, mosquitos can be a problem there. Anybody got DEET? Headlamps recommended.

Good one, Redoubt. I guess I'm doing the same, aren't I?

Come to Little Si. It'll be fun.

Connya's right, guys. Have you ever been involved in any kind of rescue or accident? There are always judgment errors involved. Have you ever had any kind of epic? There was always a judgment error involved. Have you ever been lucky that your own mistake didn't cause you to have an epic or an accident? There was a judgment error involved. It is easy to sit here and say "I wouldn't have made that mistake" and you may be right, but the fact is that you wise ones make your own mistakes and, as of yesterday, you really didn't know what you were talking about. It is exactly this kind of speculation that you criticize in the press, or in other people's reactions to your own trip reports. Maybe they made such huge mistakes that your criticisms are justified, but the basis for your criticisms seems to be that the weather report called for unsettled weather (I don't think there was any prediction of heavy moisture or unusually high wind), and that they called the rangers when they found themselves stuck at 13,000 feet (we don't know who called, why they thought they were calling, or what they said). Lawgod criticizes them for having only 2 sleeping bags for 9 people or 1 bag for 6, but I doubt more than 1% of the parties who climb from Muir or Schurman (even in the winter) carry more than this. He gripes about a prior incident and maybe the "other guy" was the jerk but, from what I have observed, it is standard practice to leave somebody behind when climbing the Emmons or the Cleaver with a large party and one person is starting to lag. Wands? Most of us would laugh at anybody who carried a bunch of wands up Mount Rainier even in the winter, let alone the summer. You folks are just carrying on the typical cc.com snipefest where everybody jumps on the bandwagon and calls each other names so they can show how clever they are. You at least ought to give them the benefit of the doubt until you know or even have grounds to think you know what actually happened. Otherwise, you are just like those clueless "other people" who say that climbers are irresponsible and they should be forced to pay for their own rescues.

'Don't know about that, Dave. It is possible that the new parking lot may have gates -- I've only been there once and I wasn't really looking for that kind of thing. The old parking lot is certainly not gated, so if it looks worriesome I suppose we could park down there (about 200 yards away). I don't know what the regulations might be, but I know that in the past I've gone climbing there after work and come stumbling out in the dark without any problem (though sandals might not be a good choice of footwear). I've done the same at Amazonia, where there used to be (probably still is) a sign saying the gate will close at dark or whatever.

10© face:

10(a) handcrack:

Distel, I would agree that a gentle word to the wise might be warranted if the weather forecast is bad but, like Rodchester, my experience over the years has been that rangers have generally told me all kinds of B.S. in order to discourage me from setting out on a climb. I am not inclined to complain about it if the Mount Rainier rangers actually know what they are talking about (I think both the Mr. G's that I know who are rangers there do) and if they are encouraging. Also, I'm sure that most climbers don't want to hear from the ranger that the weather forecast is bad because many of us have "authority issues" and most will have already checked the weather report and if we are there, we have decided to try the climb anyway. If there was a sudden change in the weather report and he thought it might have been different from what you probably heard when you left your house in the morning, I am sure he would have told you about it. But it was really not his responsibility to do so.

Of course, this assumes you actually remove the face place. If you are like most people I know, you'll do it religiously for the first month or two that you have the thing, and then pretty soon you'll start forgetting about it.

I hate to be contrary here, Distel, but I guess I'm just in the mood to pick apart whatever anybody says. I think Mr. G. should expect that anybody going to climb Mount Rainier has checked the weather report and that if they ask anything at all about conditions they are asking about on-the-ground conditions like the trail, stream crossings, crevasses, etc. I wouldn't think it irresponsible or misleading for him to say "conditions are great" if that is what they were. Had he told you "the weather forecast is poor, you know," you'd be likely to come here and complain on this board that he was trying to scare you away from the mountain where you have a god-given right to climb.

Repo, Blackstone and AWOL are the "British Aisles." I suggest these because there are more moderate climbs in this area than there are over at WWI, most are based on the ground rather than a ledge where Dwayner might fall off after drinking his Mickey's, and there is an easy way to hike up top for a view. more of the online guide

The British Aisles and immediately adjacent crags offer routes from 5.7 to 5.12b or so, lead or toprope, and there are a couple which have some crack climbing though it is mostly face. It is not quite as close to the car as the main wall at Exit 38, but in my view it is nicer although there isn't a railroad bed to hang out on. I think the parking lot may be less prone to vandalism, too. Directions to the parking area are here: on-line guide (partial) From the parking lot, hike up the trail, and stay on the main path at several forks (almost all have signs and arrows saying which way to "Little Si"). After 15 or 20 minutes, the trail climbs over a rocky rib, then drops slightly and enters a clearing. At a second small clearing, an initially indistinct trail heading left goes up a series of stone steps to reach the crags at Blackstone and Repo (the first of the "British Aisles"). If you miss the turn and stay on the main trail, you will quickly start up a small hill with switch-backs and the cliff will become visible on the left. At this point, you've gone too far but you can turn around and look for a trail forking left that heads up to meet the cliffs a couple hundred yards north of the previously noted access trail. The password: Hey You!!!! Secret Handshake: Middle finger.

Lots of people seem confused about the difference between wind-chill and actual temperature, Josh. I was impressed that the story didn't mention their having been stupid or inept or having taken unnecessary risks and it didn't sensationalize the whole thing. It seems to me that the blood-sucking media whores that some here complain about must have taken the day off when this article was written.

Hans - Is it the fact that one of them dialed "911" that you take as an indicator that they "couldn't deal?" So far, we have heard that (1) the weather was good enough that at least some parties got up and down OK, (2) they had and used a GPS but whoever did so may not have entered a waypoint at the bridge over the 'Schrund, (3) they got down under their own power, (4) injuries were minimal, and (5) they weren't even delayed very long. Again, I don't know what happened and they may well have been idiots, but it sounds to me as if they were reasonably well-prepared for what they encountered (better than most parties who get caught in storm weather at 13,000 feet, I bet), and they got themselves down. Too bad they didn't call 911 a second time to say they were on their way down, though.

I once climbed the Kloke route in the Fall. The initial pitch over the bergschrund was on steep, loose and unprotected rock that was covered with dirt, but the ice climbing on the face itself was OK. The descent down the south side was quite steep, and the rock was about as crumbly as anything that might be called "rock" -- much of it was really more like hardened dirt puctuated by "outcrops" of crumbling garbage. I'd say it rivals even the Canadian Rockies for junk factor but overall I thought the climb was worth while.

Are you guys thinking that they would not have attempted the climb if they had not been carrying a cell phone? If that is the case, I might agree with JoshK about their mental capacity. In what manner were they "unable to deal?" They called uncle, apparently, but most of us would say it is a good idea to call for help if you are in a bad situation and you have a cell phone. But it sounds as if they in fact DID deal. They got their asses kicked, but nobody was carried off the mountain, were they? Did somebody get frostbite? If they did, is that a clear indication of a party that "can't deal?" What is the standard here, by which we should judge YOUR next epic? I'm not saying it was a good weekend to go up to Mount Rainier -- I wouldn't have headed up there this weekend. But the forecast I heard was not as dire as JoskK indicates and I really don't know what happened other than that nine people attempted to climb Mount Raininer in poor weather, hunkered down for a day or so, and staggered back down to Schurman. What more does anybody know about it?

I thought you'd like Little Si, Dwayner. Ever been there? It is really quite beautiful in those woods and there's even a couple of crack climbs -- one of them doesn't even have any bolts on it! Come on out and play.

How 'bout a pub-club field trip to Little Si in honor of the Solstice?

Just try getting out of line, Syj, and we'll see. By the way - I think it'll be cool if they're still celebrating Octoberfest while we are there. Maybe we can get an Oompah band to come out and play a matinee at the campground or something....

I didn't read the newspaper or watch the news, so I know nothing about it. But from what little I've heard about the incident, it sounds like they went up despite a poor forecast, hunkered down and suffered for a day or so, and then made their way back down to Camp Schurman. Did a ranger go up and escort them down or something? From my ignorant perspective, it sounds to me as if you folks who rant about how stupid they must have been probably don't know much more about it than I do, and I bet some of you have done equally "dumb" things at some point in your climbing careers. Some people stay at home until they get a perfect weather report, and then they rely upon that weather report to go "fast and light" without carrying storm clothing or bivvy gear. That could be said to be at least as stupid as going up in poor weather with sufficient gear to hunker down and wait for clearing. Go ahead and flame me, because I've already admitted I really don't know what I'm talking about.

Don't forget my other wife, Vee.