mattp

The guy told me he saw it from a helicopter, while flying back from some other "recon" for the race. I have some pictures, but they don't show very much. You can see some ropes hanging on the wall, and I have some pictures of some of their anchors. I think we can get better pictures.

What happened at Exfoliation Dome is a disgrace. I believe, however, that we should attempt a careful evaluation of the impacts and assemble good documentation before anybody launches a publicity campaign over the matter. Also, I think it would be wise to discuss our intended outcome. They are gone and it is left to us to clean up the mess as best we can; lets try to consider how best to spread the word and discourage such things from happening elsewhere.

We could use some help transporting a large awning to RopeUp. I believe the "bundle" is roughly 4 or 5 feet long, so a pickup or stationwagon is probably needed, and it would be most helpful if the same person could transport it to both RopeUp and SmithFest.

I don't think you need more than three or lockers on your rack, and most people I know don't even carry that many. I use one for my belay 'biner, a larger than normal one specifically for that purpose, and then I usually carry a couple of locking petzl attache crabiners which I use for an extra sense of security on the rope end of a runner attached to a piece when I worry that 'biner may be banged about, or maybe for a leash biner when rapelling or something. They can be nice for setting up top-stations on a sport-climb or top rope, too. I think you'll get a hundred different suggestions about this or that being or not being a "legitimate" use for them, but I like to have a couple with me.

I don't speak for anybody else around here, but if you have a complaint with my role in any of this, you can send me a private message.

The North Buttress Couloir on Colchuck might be a good one. I bet the upper face is rather snowy and alpine feeling, but I don't think any storms are predicted between now and then so the snow ought to be consolidated somewhat and not plastered on any rocks that you'd have to actually climb on.

Unless "the ferry guys" want to attend, I'd say its Kangaroo time.

The helicopter at Exfoliation Dome was flying out ropes and equipment used in the Primal Quest Adventure Race assault on Exfoliation dome. They jumared up and rappelled back down the West Face.

Folks have been a little slow to respond on several organizational matters, bt I'm pretty sure we'll have some folks that would love that, Pax. I'm not quite sure, but I think Eddie might help as well and I think what we'll say, if it sounds good to you, is that something like 9:30 on Saturday (you name the time) anyboy interested ought to show up at the campground or look for the gapers at Barney's Rubble or wherever after that. I don't know the "practice" crags over there. What is the good spot? Would you want email inquiries in advance?

They cost $15.00 or so, but when I've set out to establish a rap station on a popular climb that I wanted to be extra strong, I've used large stainless steel rings that are sold in yachting stores, about 2x or 3x the diameter of a rap ring, with a breaking strength of something like 18,000 pounds. This way there is still room for the rope when people stuff 25 slings through them. It always amazes me to see where someone then added a slightly longer runner and a standard sized rap ring carefully being sure it would equalize the big one.

Pete was a giant. One of the strongest climbers of his generation, and always gracious. As far as I can tell, he never sought the limelight but contributed an incredible amount to mountaineering in the Northwest. He's pictured here, on the left, with Tom Hornbein.

She's right -- I think. Wheelbarrows have been seen to be "mechanized" or whatever.

Bone, let's not start a "BS contest" here. I asked no backhanded questions in this thread, I only asked whether you were consistent in stating the position that you did - and you never really answered but apparently got pissed about being questionned about this and launched out at me. You then say "I haven't attacked you.... and I haven't asked whether you bolted in the wilderness.." yet you've done so at least twice in the last week. You are perfectly free to not answer my questions, as I am free to not answer yours.

Sorry to disappoint some of you, but I remain convinced that there is no reason for me to state my position on this or other "hot button issues" in this conversation. In light of our history on this website, I question Lambone's assertion that he cares what I think and I am convinced he would attempt to use whatever I might say against me -- even if I came out in complete agreement with him on this issue and could "prove" that I always have been.

Run some searches and you will see that my basic "position" on these matters has remained the same for three years: virtual and on-the-ground bolt wars have done little to stem the tide of bolting and have had the net effect of driving most climbers away from any real discussion of these or other issues we face. The WCC does not have to take a position on this or any other issue in order to facilitate communication between climbers and between climbers and land managers or other outside parties - and certainly not at this stage. Who knows where this effort will lead us, but at this point we are not working to change any regulations or to aid or discourage law enforcement efforts with respect to any specific regulation. We ARE working to encourage climbers to take a more realistic look at the issues we face and to promote cooperation and communication between climbers and land managers. Bug and Cramer are right on: if you don't even try to get involved other than to throw stink bombs on this website, you really have no right to complain about what somebody else does when you are not there.

Bone, As best I can tell, you seem bent on attacking me and exposing my "hypocrisy" only as a jab. I've explained to you why I don't want to "take the stand" on bolting issues and once again I will say: I believe it does not help my organizational efforts to take any stand on bolting issues. Many others agree, and they have asked me not to do so. You continue your jabs, and I hope others see as I do that it looks like you raise them only when you don't like a point I've made in a debate. Le me ask you this: besides beating your chest on this site, or "raising important issues" as you call it, what have you done to help climbers and climbing in Washington? I have gone to lots of public meetings over the years and have participated in lots of crag cleanups and trail projects. I have put up some routes that I am proud of, and I have removed a lot of litter bolts and tat. I maintain a website where climbers can get topos and route beta for free. I have met with several Forest Service personnel and responded directly to their concerns as well as encouraging others to do the same. As far as I can tell, those who most loudly criticize the WCC or rail about bolting practices on this website have rarely gotten involved in any such efforts and certainly have not put as much into any of these things as those who they attack. I believe you can see that I have been extremely restrained in responding to your taunts in the last three weeks. I'll discuss real issues if you want to, but I'm not interested in exchanging insults. If you want to be an ass, why don't you attack someone who wants to play in the sandbox with you?

Why do you keep bringing this up, Lambone? I have explained why I avoid this discussion to you before, and i believe I've told you too that I have been specifically asked not to discuss this point with you or to discuss it on this board. I think we can still discuss whether it is a good idea to rat on a rat though. But maybe not.

Bug, I agree that bolts leave a permanent blemish in a way that violating a bird closure or a campground fee does not, and I think everyone here agrees that it may be rational to support a bolting ban but to think it is OK to violate a nesting season closure or to skip out on paying the camp fees (note my use of the word "may"). You seem to completely miss my point, though. I thought we were talking about whether we should rat on a rat and what our goals in doing so might be. I've been talking to the rangers around here for many years, and I believe they are much more concerned about and have a more consistent problem with most of the other violations I listed than with wilderness power drilling. This doesn't justify power drilling or answer the question whether you should rat on a rat, but it is directly relevant to our discussion. If our goal is to convince rangers that we as climbers are law-abiding citizens, I believe we'd make more progress by working to promote and enforce compliance with respect the issues that they are most concerned with. If our goal is to draw attention to bolting issues or to support law enforcement with respect to these issues, than we'd make more progress by turning in the bolters but not the permit violators or whatever.

I'm not arguing that if you violate one law you have no business supporting the enforcement of others, Lammy. As I understood your arguments here and in the past, you have said you believe that the problem with violating wilderness regulations with a power drill is bad not because of the result - bolts and bolted climbing - but that it is bad primarily or at least in large part because it threatens to make climbers as a group look bad in the eyes of law enforcement officials. The argument I heard was that it might be a good idea to turn them in so the rangers understand that not all climbers are "bad apples. Would you view it the same way when climbers make us look bad by playing hide and seek in camp 4, sneaking out of campgrounds without paying the camping fee, playing games with Larry the Tool over fee demo, building campfires during a fire ban, violating wilderness permit restrictions, or climbing on crags that are closed for nesting season? Maybe so.

I don't doubt that Merv honestly dislikes bolting inside and outside the wilderness but I think Kurt's point that we are talking about selective enforcement has some validity. Off White tried to make this point, too, and was rebuffed but I think some of those who sound as if they advocate turning in someone who uses a power drill are quite willing to violate a permit regulation and to brag about doing so, or to camp outside a designated area or stay longer than allowed in camp 4 or to raise hell with an obnoxious and illegal party in a campground when it suits their purposes - and some of these same individuals would be highly critical of anybody who sought to turn them in so that climbers as a group didn't look bad in the eyes of the authorities.

I may have said that is what I usually do, Catbird, but you should recognize that it has its limits. If you run backwards and stay on your feet you can often come out of a slab fall with not even a scratch, but in a longer fall I don't believe you are going to be able to keep up no matter what you do and the back peddling will likely only increase the chances that you're going to end up tumbling and getting really banged up because you're going to be keeping your center of gravity away from the rock. Also, the back peddlng may cause you to put a greater force or a more outward pull on a nut or cam placed behind some hollow flake or something. I do not recommend any "one size fits all" approach to falling on a slab. I am surprised when we read, every time this topic comes up, that slab falls are the most dangerous (or someting like that). Maybe I'm just not clear on what the definition of a slab is, but to me a slab is a smooth and low angle rock face and often on this terrain there is nothing to hit. I do not call it a slab where a climb follows broken terrain that happens to be less than vertical. I've never heard of any serious or even significant injury when someone fell of, say, On Line at Static (the climb known for total slickness with "gape like a fish runouts" where thirty footers are not uncommon), and I bet if you look at Accidents in North American Mountaineering you will find that serious injuries on slabs constitute very few of the serious fall-injuries reported. One other miscellaneous point I want to comment on is the idea that you should push away from the rock when you fall. I believe this is most applicable to bolt-proteted and overhanging terrain but that lots of times it is a bad idea. On any terrain less than vertical, pushing away from the rock may avoid hitting the ledge immediately below you but it is just as likely to increase the speed with which you strike the next one. Also, most of us protect as closely as possible below a hard move. Generally you want the pull to come downward on your gear, not outward. In all cases, the idea that a leader should try to keep their head about them is correct. When launching onto a hard move, look to see where the rope is or what you may hit if you fall and evaluate your pro - and then think about what you are going to do if you come off. There's a good chance that your reaction in a fall will be instinctive and this "analysis" will change little, but maybe you'll do better than simply reacting as you always do.

I thought you were leaving.

Sorry to let you down, Lambone. I'll try to be more entertaining next time.

Whatever, Caveman. Lambone, The trail to 3:00 Rock is a hiking trail. Hunters and mining history enthusiasts and other recreational users use that valley, and there are some mining claims as well. Climbers probably constitute most of the traffic, though. But again, you make a point that I can't follow. Are you saying that if we like to use roads and trails we have no right to complain about Fee Demo? If so, I definitely disagree. As I understand it, the program is not a very efficient money-maker on a national basis, but it does provide extra funds at the district level since much of the program cost comes from budgets that cannot be used for maintaining trails and roads at the local level. Aside from this, I believe it is just plain wrong for the Forest Service, BLM, and other similar agencies to have used so much public money building roads serving minining, logging, and grazing interests, and otherwise administered the giving away our public resources at a fraction of the true cost, while failing to find funds for hiking trails and roads to trailheads. I have had conversations with local Forest Service employees who have implied that they aren't too psyched about the program either, but it DOES give them some funding. Lastly, your comment about Larry-the-tool is really an odd one. If you had read much of the discussion on this board I think you would have seen it clearly stated that the guy was an obnoxious person to deal with quite apart from the policy that he was enforcing.

That's part of the hard man mentality on this board, Fenderfore. We like to beat our chests about how whatever we do is better than what anyone else does, and Alpine climbing is the real deal but everybody knows that gyms suck. When I saw Matt's original post about going to the gym with your pack I thought about adding that you should also take the pea gravel out and replace it with sharp rocks, make all the holds breakable, install a shower device that intermittently drops rocks and water on your head ... These "warnings" are accurate, but what may not have been adequately stated is that you can start with relatively friendly climbs and work your way into it.