mattp

I have two folding chairs, left in the campsite Sunday morning. Send me a private message if one of them is yours.

I've put a couple of pictures on the WCC website here: Washington Climbers Coalition web page

The thing is, too, that there is not all that much that can readily be "fixed" at this point. I didn't rappel their lines, but I think we are going to find that they did indeed remove or chop most of their bolts. I know that they kicked rocks back on their tent platforms and some of their staging areas. I don't think there is any way to clean what sewage they've left behind (the guy I talked to yesterday said they packed it all out but I wouldn't recommend drinking the water up there now) and you can't put the bushes back together. We'll do what we can to help clean it up a little further and time will help heal the rest. The real issue here is just that they had hundreds of people up there and it shows. I don't think large-scale commercial events should take place in that kind of environment, but this is more of a long-term issue that we can better address through focussed efforts based on careful reflection than through any immediate campaign of complaints.

Rad - I really don't think we want Primal Quest to come back and undertake further clean-up efforts at the dome. They actually had quite a large crew working on the clean-up last weekend and they did quite a bit in their slightly hurried rush to leave the place, but they are gone now and I don't want them back. Its a mess, and I am saddened by what they left behind, but I'd much rather we complete any futher cleanup ourselves, using volunteers who care about that place. We've conducted crag clean-ups in the past, and we can do it again. By taking responsibilty in this manner, we would in no way excuse or condone what happened - but we'd take responsibility for solving a problem that has been thrust upon us without demanding any resources from the already strapped Forest Service office in Darrington. If somebody intends to go up there and "check it out," please take a camera and take notes on what you find. Then lets organize our own work parties, as needed, and talk about what we can do to try to prevent this from happening again.

Blake - Down low in the canyon, in the Sam Hill area, Ski Tracks Crack (5.9 trad) is near don't forget Arete (5.9 sport); both are excellent short climbs. Giveler's Dome, 5.8 is another trad favorite (though as some note here, it is a lot of hike for what you get). Jazzy Document (5.9 sport but I think you need gear) is also good. Right above the campground, Bathtub Dome has plenty of stuff in your target zone, as well. If you want to range slightly farther afield, Castle Rock in Tumwater Canyon has a bunch of moderates that are absolutely classic (Saints, Canary, Catapult and Jello Tower, S. Face, are all 5.8 trad) and so does Peshastin Pinnacles (check out Martian Diagonal Direct (5.8 trad)). If you want a longer climb, check out Orbit (5.8 trad) on Snow Creek Wall.

I believe we DO have a pretty good relationship with them, Marylou. I think our problem lies mostly with Subaru Primal Quest and not with the Forest Service. We can speculate about what the rangers might or should or could have done when CBS and Subaru Primal Quest came along with their proposal, but I don't see how they would or could have consulted with some climbers' group about it - if that is what you are suggesting. I also don't know if we can or ever will be able to expect that they'd say "no" to an event like this, or what level of supervision or oversight they could have provided given their budget. As we learn more about this thing, we may want to propose that such event sponsors be required to complete an environmental assessment or something, and we may have some basis for this. First, I say, let's set to work on evaluating just how much of a mess we really have, and talk about some clean up, and take some time to consider what kind of campaign may help prevent this from happening in the future. Lets focus on these tasks before we start raising hell in the Darrington office or pointing fingers among ourselves, saying "I told you so" or whatever. ScottP touches on a significant point: the impacts they've had are not unlike those of climbers. However, there is a fundamental difference in my view: they've probably had as much impact in two weeks as we might be able to create in several years, and theirs was a hit and run sh*^storm that persumably generated a huge profit for them, but was left for us to clean up.

Exfoliation Dome does not lie within any wilderness area. It has a wilderness "feel" to it, but it is not within the boundary.

NOLS and Slop make some good suggestions about what we'd like to see here, and I'd urge further reflection on these things. Let me just focus on one point, but I could make similar "arguments" about some of their others. Slop says he'd like to see Primal Quest remove any leftover bolts - at their own expense. This sounds like a "no brainer," but I saw a 1/2 " chopped bolt on the Granite Sidewalk that looked as if it may have been simply been beaten back and forth until it broke. In any event, it had a cone of rock chipped away from the edge of the hole, and the broken bolt end was flush with the rock surface. They broke or chiseled it off and sprinkled powdered granite on it to try to conceal the hole. This is NOT the kind of bolt removal effort I'd like to see. I think I'd rather we clean it up ourselves than ask THEM to do it. And I think I'd rather see it done by volunteers than by somebody who is on anybody's time clock. In thinking about how we want to "hold them accountable," or "prevent future acts," or whatever else, too, we should talk about exactly what these things might look like. Meanwhile, I encourage DBerdinka and GregW and others who want to assess and document the situation.

In the overview photo posted by Will, the "main event" took place on the main wall facing the camera, right of center and just right of a swath of lighter rock that sweeps up the face. The jug lines ran from two tiny patches of trees, visible not far off the ground, to a top station just below another tiny patch of trees visible below and right of the summit. Once again, before everybody starts firing off angry letters to Subaru or to the Forest Service or to anybody else, I would hope we can take some time to figure out what we want out of this. The damage is done. Shouldn't we take our time to decide, for example, whether we want to declare war on the rangers over this?

The guy told me he saw it from a helicopter, while flying back from some other "recon" for the race. I have some pictures, but they don't show very much. You can see some ropes hanging on the wall, and I have some pictures of some of their anchors. I think we can get better pictures.

What happened at Exfoliation Dome is a disgrace. I believe, however, that we should attempt a careful evaluation of the impacts and assemble good documentation before anybody launches a publicity campaign over the matter. Also, I think it would be wise to discuss our intended outcome. They are gone and it is left to us to clean up the mess as best we can; lets try to consider how best to spread the word and discourage such things from happening elsewhere.

We could use some help transporting a large awning to RopeUp. I believe the "bundle" is roughly 4 or 5 feet long, so a pickup or stationwagon is probably needed, and it would be most helpful if the same person could transport it to both RopeUp and SmithFest.

I don't think you need more than three or lockers on your rack, and most people I know don't even carry that many. I use one for my belay 'biner, a larger than normal one specifically for that purpose, and then I usually carry a couple of locking petzl attache crabiners which I use for an extra sense of security on the rope end of a runner attached to a piece when I worry that 'biner may be banged about, or maybe for a leash biner when rapelling or something. They can be nice for setting up top-stations on a sport-climb or top rope, too. I think you'll get a hundred different suggestions about this or that being or not being a "legitimate" use for them, but I like to have a couple with me.

I don't speak for anybody else around here, but if you have a complaint with my role in any of this, you can send me a private message.

The North Buttress Couloir on Colchuck might be a good one. I bet the upper face is rather snowy and alpine feeling, but I don't think any storms are predicted between now and then so the snow ought to be consolidated somewhat and not plastered on any rocks that you'd have to actually climb on.

Unless "the ferry guys" want to attend, I'd say its Kangaroo time.

The helicopter at Exfoliation Dome was flying out ropes and equipment used in the Primal Quest Adventure Race assault on Exfoliation dome. They jumared up and rappelled back down the West Face.

Folks have been a little slow to respond on several organizational matters, bt I'm pretty sure we'll have some folks that would love that, Pax. I'm not quite sure, but I think Eddie might help as well and I think what we'll say, if it sounds good to you, is that something like 9:30 on Saturday (you name the time) anyboy interested ought to show up at the campground or look for the gapers at Barney's Rubble or wherever after that. I don't know the "practice" crags over there. What is the good spot? Would you want email inquiries in advance?

They cost $15.00 or so, but when I've set out to establish a rap station on a popular climb that I wanted to be extra strong, I've used large stainless steel rings that are sold in yachting stores, about 2x or 3x the diameter of a rap ring, with a breaking strength of something like 18,000 pounds. This way there is still room for the rope when people stuff 25 slings through them. It always amazes me to see where someone then added a slightly longer runner and a standard sized rap ring carefully being sure it would equalize the big one.

Pete was a giant. One of the strongest climbers of his generation, and always gracious. As far as I can tell, he never sought the limelight but contributed an incredible amount to mountaineering in the Northwest. He's pictured here, on the left, with Tom Hornbein.

She's right -- I think. Wheelbarrows have been seen to be "mechanized" or whatever.

Bone, let's not start a "BS contest" here. I asked no backhanded questions in this thread, I only asked whether you were consistent in stating the position that you did - and you never really answered but apparently got pissed about being questionned about this and launched out at me. You then say "I haven't attacked you.... and I haven't asked whether you bolted in the wilderness.." yet you've done so at least twice in the last week. You are perfectly free to not answer my questions, as I am free to not answer yours.

Sorry to disappoint some of you, but I remain convinced that there is no reason for me to state my position on this or other "hot button issues" in this conversation. In light of our history on this website, I question Lambone's assertion that he cares what I think and I am convinced he would attempt to use whatever I might say against me -- even if I came out in complete agreement with him on this issue and could "prove" that I always have been.

Run some searches and you will see that my basic "position" on these matters has remained the same for three years: virtual and on-the-ground bolt wars have done little to stem the tide of bolting and have had the net effect of driving most climbers away from any real discussion of these or other issues we face. The WCC does not have to take a position on this or any other issue in order to facilitate communication between climbers and between climbers and land managers or other outside parties - and certainly not at this stage. Who knows where this effort will lead us, but at this point we are not working to change any regulations or to aid or discourage law enforcement efforts with respect to any specific regulation. We ARE working to encourage climbers to take a more realistic look at the issues we face and to promote cooperation and communication between climbers and land managers. Bug and Cramer are right on: if you don't even try to get involved other than to throw stink bombs on this website, you really have no right to complain about what somebody else does when you are not there.

Bone, As best I can tell, you seem bent on attacking me and exposing my "hypocrisy" only as a jab. I've explained to you why I don't want to "take the stand" on bolting issues and once again I will say: I believe it does not help my organizational efforts to take any stand on bolting issues. Many others agree, and they have asked me not to do so. You continue your jabs, and I hope others see as I do that it looks like you raise them only when you don't like a point I've made in a debate. Le me ask you this: besides beating your chest on this site, or "raising important issues" as you call it, what have you done to help climbers and climbing in Washington? I have gone to lots of public meetings over the years and have participated in lots of crag cleanups and trail projects. I have put up some routes that I am proud of, and I have removed a lot of litter bolts and tat. I maintain a website where climbers can get topos and route beta for free. I have met with several Forest Service personnel and responded directly to their concerns as well as encouraging others to do the same. As far as I can tell, those who most loudly criticize the WCC or rail about bolting practices on this website have rarely gotten involved in any such efforts and certainly have not put as much into any of these things as those who they attack. I believe you can see that I have been extremely restrained in responding to your taunts in the last three weeks. I'll discuss real issues if you want to, but I'm not interested in exchanging insults. If you want to be an ass, why don't you attack someone who wants to play in the sandbox with you?