mattp

Whatever, Caveman. Lambone, Nobody goes there after work even now, but even on a Saturday few would want to make the extra 5 or 6 mile journey to go cragging up there if the road were gated back at the Mountain Loop Highway. Also, in that environment I think we'd see the roadbed deteriorate and the Alders invade pretty quick and we might not be able to use bicycles in a few years. But I'm not following you. Are you suggesting that closing that road would be a good thing?

I'm not sure that it is fair to say that my friends and I are responsible for the road remaining open, JayB, because I don't know all the specifics of the management priorities and budget matters in the Darrington District. We have worked with them on this and other issues, though, and they have worked with us.

Right on, Crutch. I, for one, would love to read somebody's report of how they got sketched out on some 5.11 climb at a crag - or a 5.4 for that matter - if they had something interesting to say about it. But rarely do we read such reports here because most people fear that anything they post here can and will be criticized or they fear that saying "I got scared" will only make them look bad somehow. I know its human nature for many of us to read something on this board and focus on what we disapprove of rather than what we like about it, and maybe it should come as no surprise that we rarely see an emphatic statement in support of somebody else but a dozen times a day we read an emphatic post putting somebody else down. However, I think those who say "it doesn't matter" or "just ignore it" are missing the point. For most of us, it actually DOES matter what we read here, and few around here ignore it when somebody is attacking them. There is an element of good advice where we read "don't sweat it, bro – it's the Internet." In many cases, however, those who offer this advice are precisely the posters who actually go the most aggro when provoked and their anger is no joke even though they may try to pass it off as such a day or two later after they've regained their composure.

Lammy, maybe you don't want to talk seriously about the WCC cause that would ruin your thread. However, I'd say that if you believe it is the active bolters who are ruining access in Washington, those would be the exact people you'd want to include in an organization like the WCC because it would be them who you'd need to work with in order to change the situation. If you saw such a group forming, if you thought they were engaged in discussions with Forest Sevice officials or others who have some control over access, and if you actually cared about access to climbing in Washington, you'd want to get involved rather than sit on the outside and throw stones -- unless, I suppose, you thought that your stone throwing on cc.com was going to be effective at actually helping the situation somehow. Aside from the fact that it may make you feel good, do you think your rants here will either discourage these evil bolters or that a Forest Service official will read them and conclude that climbers are a group they can work with? I understand some of the anti-bolt arguments on this site, but lets think this through a little bit. The WCC is off to a good start and there are a lot of issues to address. You live in Oregon and have stated that you hope that at least one Washington climbing area is closed down. Even still, you are welcome to show up at a meeting some time and speak your mind. Anybody who lives around here and cares about climbing is more than welcome to get involved.

Lambone's leaving?

The guidelines for the route reports state: The guidelines for the Climbers' Board states: Off and Rad have expressed some of the reasons why there are different guidelines for the different forums. Spliffy's rant about poor climbing style, began with "could someone really be so stupid..." and ended with ... "un-fucking-believable." Personally, I think his approach went beyond the colorful and realistic that Bug describes, but that is neither here nor there. The fact is that he made some good points. They are now preserved for posterity in this thread on the Climbers' Board.

If that was your argument about Town Crier, Scott, it was lost on me. You wrote that replacing those bolts with new ones took all the adventure out of the route because subsequent parties would not have to be careful but could simply yard away. This, you said, removed the challenge and made it into a vertical hike. Perhaps a Town Crier compromise might have been to do as David Gunstone did on the East Buttress of South Early Winter Spire, and "strategically" replace only some of the bolts but leave at least enough for people to be able to "appreciate" the originals? Apart from bolt ladders, I can think of few situations where I would advocate this and I generally don't think I would advise it for what is often treated as a "training climb" like Town Crier. I think the East Buttress is a better setting for this kind of treatment. In general, I am not in favor of leaving "time bombs" on the rock. I'd rather see the rusty old bolts as souvenirs on somebody's mantel. But Scott notes a couple of places where he suggests that modern climbers don't need to use the old hardware and it doesn't constitute a hazard. When making such a call, I believe we should ask ourselves what the prospect is for someone, perhaps on retreat or in the dark, to actually rely upon the old bolt in question. I jacked out a few rusty old bolts with 20-year-recalled Leeper hangers on them just the other day because they were in an area where people rappel in the dark. Not infrequently, I have come upon newly installed retreat slings on old rusty bolts when there were relatively new ones or a good solid tree not far away. Another alternative for certain settings is to do as was done on Canary at Castle Rock and place a new one near the original, but I have always looked at the rusty spinners there and wondered why the guy who replaced them didn't use the old holes. You stand there, face to face with them, contemplating difficult moves and I find the rusty old relics visually obtrusive more than a fascinating bit of history.

Josh, Do you have one? I've read that despite the Zeiss lens they have poor optics or something and take slighty fuzzy pictures, and that they are "fragile" at least in the sense that the doors or plugs break off. Also, some say that large LCD can be more prone to damage in cold weather. Despite these quesiton, it seems like the most packed into the smallest, though.

It is indeed pretty cool to come upon historic relics sometimes and there is a time and place for them to be preserved. This is true not only in the Wilderness but even at roadside crags. I think many of us have seen the bolts on the East Buttress, the old ring pitons on Midway, or the huge iron rings at Index -- and thought it was pretty cool to see this little bit of history in our vertical museum. Thanks for pointing this out.

I am one of them, Lammy, but its all a matter of context. Again, the question was about an alpine rock climb. I know of very few alpin rock climbs anywhere (yes there are some but probably less than 5% of the routes out there) where bolts present a large visual impact.

I have put a lot of effort into replacing unsightly webbing heaps with chain and replacing shiny hangers with painted ones on rock climbing crags, but, yes, I believe they "can be" hard to spot. As I said, I don't know where his bolts are going, but most "alpine rock climbs" are not located where the bolts are going to be seen by anyone but a climber on the route in question. That person is not likely to be offended by the sight of the bolt he or she is looking to clip into. Unless there is a reason to worry about visual impact as in the case where this "alpine rock" is near a trail or it is heavily laden with hardware or something, I would not place a premium on camouflaging the bolts. Hot pink would be a little excessive, in my opinion. Jeeze.

Matt- The hike in from Rainy Pass isn't all that bad and you can make your trip vastly easier if you camp at the base and then descend right back down the route. If there isn't some kind of rain and snowstorm happening, that is. Given what I saw of you recently, you'll climb both up and down 90% of the route unroped. The campsite belowt he glacier is

You can get the "tuning fork" at an automotive tool shop. It is a "ball joint separator" or something like that. It is lighter than a crow bar. It will pull out old 1/4" bolts like butter, but not necessarily 3/8" ones. I don't know where your bolts are, but I would not use powder coated hangers for most alpine rock climbs where the bolts are likely to be quite few and far between. The damn things can be hard to spot.

If it is only an example, than the answer to his rhetorical ploy is obvious: there are at least a half dozen snowmobile parks between North Bend and Cle Elum. There is a downhill ski area in the Alpental Valley. There is a bicycle trail through the pass. There are hundreds of miles of hiking trails in the vicinity. They are building a new campground for the RV crowd, 13 miles up the Middle Fork of the Snoqualmie. They've already made the concessions, and the allowance of this crag or even three more like it doesn't change that equation. It's a matter of management priorities, but there is not and has never been a valid argument that if they allow one activity they have to allow another that is completely different. There are literally hundreds of square miles of land managed specifically for snowmobiles in the immediate vicinity. Alpental Valley happens to be at the top of the pass, where short access leads to a crag that offers an opportunity for mixed climbing that will not severely impact snowshoers, cross country skiers, or downhill skiers who already use the area. Vastly less than 1% of them will ever see or hear about the Rap Wall. Unless, that is, some ardent trad climber on a mission goes really really far out of their way to stir up some controversy. Popes "example" just doesn't make any sense.

Pope, you made a similar argument where in the Squamish Gondola thread you suggested that those who tolerate or advocate sport climbing at Squamish have no right to complain about a proposed gondola on The Chief. I honestly don't know where you are coming from. To most of us, it is obvious that the impacts associated with climbing (even sport climbing) and gondola's and snowmobiles are different, and that these activities are not necessarily compatible. I bet a high percentage of those who engage in winter recreation in the Alpental Valley highly value the opportunity to go someplace where there are not snowmobiles whizzing by, and that most of these people have had and will in the future have no problem with a mixed climbing crag existing at "Rap Wall" or on another crag nearby. I bet, too, the ski area operators and the USFS would agree because the conflicts in the parking area and along the trail to Source Lake that would be presented by snowmobiles vastly exceed those associated with anything I could ever envision being associated with a climbing crag at Rap Wall. Are you really arguing that if we tolerate bolt intensive climbing we have no logical argument against opening up the same areas to snowmobiling and gondolas?

Joseph, You're talking about the subtext here of whether it is a good idea to suggest to newbies that the little details don't matter. You seem to suggest that it is irresponsible to encourage sloppy climbing habits or to suggest that there is not a right and a wrong way of doing things. You are correct. However, I believe it equally true that many if not most beginning climbers today seem overly preoccupied with the technical side of things. In a climbing gym and in many instructional courses it appears to me that they spend too much time worrying about such things as fall factor analysis or complex rope management systems or SRENE anchors or rigid communication protocols or whatever. I don't know for sure, because it has been a long time since I've taken any instructional courses, but I do see guides and instructors teaching workshops in the field and I have perceived a trend towards making things increasingly complicated and using more and more specialized gear where it is not even remotely necessary. Also, it seems to me that there is more discussion on this bulletin board about "how to build and anchor" or whether a certain knot is fit for a certain purpose than there are about "how to keep moving" or how do you discuss with your partner your wish to retreat in the middle of a climb. Generally with younger or newer climbers, I see them much more likely to waste time and even potentially to make mistakes with complicated rope handling, and I seem them wasting time doing nothing -- much more often than I see them doing something seriously wrong in how they rack their gear or set up a rappel.

I have had only limited success cleaning my Aliens. Is there some trick to this? I stick them in soapy water and shake and activate the cams -- what else should I try? (Off topic, but it is my impression that Metolius cams don't get bunged up as fast - do others agree?)

I was talking to an atmospheric scientist who said, last week, that about 95% of those who are actually knowledgeable about the issues agree that human-induced global warming is real. He pointed out that there remain those 5% who say we don't have conclusive proof, and this is why the industry shills, as you call them, are able to play their trumpets so loudly and why they can get away with it. My "source" is not an expert on global warming, but he's involved in a closely related field and is certainly one who I would expect to have an informed opinion on this issue.

That's kind of the point I made back on page one, Ashw. Merv and Pope suggest it is a travesty for someone to have done such a dispicable thing to the wilderness of Alpental valley, but I can barely think of a more appropriate place in the entire state. Yes, it would be better if the route did not stand right above an access route where someone like Merve is going to take offense, and Pope is correct that there are probably similar opportunities for this kind of climb elsewhere. However, the Source Lake area or a similar location up on Stevens Pass or up near the Mount Baker ski area are exactly the place where we go looking for easy access winter climbing and where 99% of the recreational users do not expect a wilderness experience. The Rap Wall is not in a legally designated Wilderness or a National Park or, as far as I know, an environmentally sensitive area. It is not a location where I would expect there to be significant user-conflicts or where I can immediately forsee other management issues.

Joseph, we're talking about style here. It sounds as if you like to dial in your "systems" with a partner and there is nothing wrong with that (a lot right, actually), but yours is not the only safe or proper approach to climbing. I have climbed with a German partner who insisted on using twin ropes (not double) for a variety of rock climbs and alpine rock routes, and exclusively the munter belay; to make him comfortable, I did the same. I once climbed with and Australian I'd never met before, and let me tell you: he had some funny ideas about Alpine ice climbing but I didn't think he was unsafe. Over the years, I've teamed up with people who I've never met before, spent zero time working out belay commands and racking methods, and even done some climbs with improper equipment. I've never gone in for speed climbing, but that too is a matter of style and there are other ways to enjoy this world. I don't think I've made a career of being dangerously unsafe but maybe I'm just lucky.

In my mind, it is the end result that matters much more than whether the bolts were put in on lead or hang. When I'm climbing a line I personally don't care all that much what the experience of some guy 10 years ago was like. Maybe it is selfish of me, but I usually focus on whether the route follows an interesting line and what the climbing is like, along with whether it may be over bolted or a squeeze job or otherwise unaesthetic or maybe scary or dangerous. These things affect my experience as a climber more than a footnote in the guidebook that may tell about the first ascent. If Ghost Dog or whatever it is turns out to be regarded as an enjoyable or exciting or great climb, I will most likely commend the vision that went into it either way.

For the initial pass, a 4" broad knife gets much of the lichen off and it also works well for carving the dirt and moss out of cracks, too. (I think you're likely to find dirt in cracks, even high on some alpine route, but maybe you have some unique rock type that doesn't have any.) The broad knife, your nut pick, and a fairly small wire brush will do pretty well for what you're describing.

Here's Lucky's shot of the crew:

Does the good single malt come in "travellers?"

That's crap and I believe you know it, Merv. In starting your thread as you did, you KNEW what kind of reaction you were going to get because this would be the 159th time you have set out to make the same point in the same snide tone and gotten the same response. And then, at every turn of the "discussion," you did pretty much all you could to invite more invective. Yes, the overall tenor of the thread has been obnoxious, but you set out to stir the shit and now you're crying "poor me" because it stinks.