mattp

Bug, some folks here may have "Jesus issues" but wouldn't you agree that there are a lot of screwed up things done in the name of religion? Do you think the present infusion of "Christian" values and the narrow agenda of groups like the Christian Coalition is a good thing in American politics?

C'mon, TVash. That is why I posted that excerpt from the Congressional bill that Bagdad Jim voted against yesterday. He voted yes to recognize that there exists a holiday called Ramadan, but voted no to reject a statement that Christianity is and should be the predominant religion of the United States. The ACLU must be behind this.

As has been made obvious on cc.com over and over again, Christians do not have the market cornered when it comes to being judgmental and intolerant, though KK I'd have to say you do a good job of demonstrating the crude intolerance some of us here associate with right wing Christians. I already posted that I agree with some of the complaints about the "tone" of the anti-Christian ranting here but Minx is right: Vertical Hiker should not have expected a solidly warm reception on this bulletin board and he's going to have to expect some people to be quite hostile if he introduces himself to other climbers on Mt. McKinley by saying "Hi. I"m here for a Cristian climb..."

There you go with that Big Brother stuff again. We gotta go worship your god now? I'm a little busy now, but otherwise a little Pagan solstice ritual might be in order.

Yes, ChucK, I'm down with the First Amendment. The pastor DID tell him how to vote and, I believe, my father in law felt bound to heed his advice. You're right, MoveOn does it but the difference is that about three hundred years ago some grumpy old guys with wigs on decided that we should try our best to keep churches out of our government and while there have ever since been the occasional political speeches invoking god, and while there may be nothing per se wrong with churches being involved in political discussions, the present trend in American politics is that religion is becoming, for a large segment of the population, THE litmus test for a candidate and the word from their church THE basis for any vote.

SO you have no problem with chuches telling their members how to vote? Or proclamations that the United States is chosen by god? Or the succcessful efforts of those with some other agenda to manipulate voters over issues such as abortion? My father in law, a democrat all his life, voted for Bush because his pastor told him that Gore was "pro abortion." George Bush justified his war in Iraq with references to religions crusade, and you're telling me the Athiests are a threat?

Now hold on there, Fairweather. I just took a shot at my buddy Tvash on the question of tone but you're not seriously arguing that the Christian right has a less harmful impact on American politics than the Athiests, are you?

You're funny, Mr. K! Meanwhile, what do you think of McDermotts vote against this: The House of Representatives-- (1) recognizes the Christian faith as one of the great religions of the world; (2) expresses continued support for Christians in the United States and worldwide; (3) acknowledges the international religious and historical importance of Christmas and the Christian faith; (4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the formation of the western civilization; (5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians, both in the United States and worldwide; and (6) expresses its deepest respect to American Christians and Christians throughout the world. Does this mean that McDermott hates Christmas? What do you think, Vertical Hiker? (Personally, I think it a travesty that anybody would vote for such a resolution.)_

Carry on, Tvash. You're ranting is really quite entertaining but I seriously doubt you and Mr. Healy are convincing anybody of what you think you are saying (and I largely agree with you guys). Just a thought.

This is great stuff. Vertical Hiker comes on here seeking climbers for a McKinley trip on a climbers board, a likely place to find them. But, oh my, he has AN AGENDA!!! I’m as much of a secular liberal as anybody around here and I agree with many of the arguments from our esteemed Mr. Healy and some of the others here, but really: some of you guys have Jesus issues! For sure, lots of mayhem has been committed in the name of Christianity, and modern conservative Christian intrusion into American politics is in my view a very real threat to part of what I thought our country stands for, but I sure hope you guys don't carry on with the same acrid rancor in a public debate because it just makes you guys look bad.

Hear ye hear ye. Come on out tonight and meet your fellow cc.com'ers at Dante's in the U District tonight. Typically, some come early, as early as 7:00 or 7:30. Some will come later and we'll probably be in lager attendance closer to 9:00 when it is time for those who go to work early to go home. Ours will be that medium sized group with a slightly older median age than most of the other people there. Dante's: 5300 Roosevelt Way NE, Seattle

You misunderstand, Bug. I don't blame you for wondering what is up. Perhaps now that Wayne has weighed in along with TVash, we can all get back to Santa's workshop and start hammering out some good quality spray. HO HO HO. To Dante's Pub we go. Be happy goddammit. Arguing about where to drink beer is 2004. Show up and celebrate the passage of another year on cc.com. Some of us have wasted - er I mean productively spent - several years here already and a holiday pub club should be part of YOUR tradition.

Hoodies are out. Elf-wear is in. You'll save money by staying home, Bug, but on the other hand maybe grumpy the dwarf and company in Seattle will decide that they actually want to get together with their fellow sprayers in time for you to change your mind.

On big climbs I have not been able to keep up with either food or water intake to match my need. Do you guys, builder and sun, have suggestions on how to do that when you are moving for 15 or 20 hours, barely stopping for a rest anywhere, and carrying a pack with mountaineering gear and clothing yet light enough that you can lead challenging technical ground?

How do I get on the elite team, Bug? Might it be by showing up for a holiday's quaff?

Some of the natives are rallying to go to Dante's. What do you all say, over the river and through the woods to 5300 Roosevelt Way NE?

Archy: "Tursday" was meant as "Thursday."

Aren't you a bundle of holiday cheer!

We've been planning a pubclub outing to the Ballard Grill and Alehouse for this Tursday; perhaps you folks might consider attending there or we might make a visit to Dante's. There aren't any $1 pitchers at the Grill and Alehouse but there are pool tables.

I've used both flicklock and twist mechanisms quite extensively and I think the twisties are a little easier to deal with as long as you tune them up once a season or so. Take them apart, clean the inside of the barrel and the screw threads with steel wool, lube the threads, and rough up the gripper with 60 grit sandpaper. Athletic tape on the pole sleeves above the twist lock and down near the bail really helps provide "traction" for untwisting them, too. The flick locks, if tight enough to avoid slipping, can be difficult to unlock. With either type, don't take them to the ski resort where you are going to pound on them. Since you won't be skinning uphill, there is really little need for adjustable poles at the resort and you're better off using cheapo's from Salvation Army.

I agree that several of them are craven opportunists, Jay, but what are you saying here? The Republicans aren't or haven't been? Are you just being provocative just to get a rise, or are you suggesting there is something wrong with stating the actual idea that we should not be torturing people? Better late than never, isn't it? Most of those on the Republican side of the aisle are STILL saying they don't want to look into it.

Clark, I'll be a pretty hard customer to sell the idea that we should abandon the Geneva Conventions and 500 years of condemnation of torture including waterboarding, but I would certainly consider the information and think it quite relevant to the questions at hand if someone were to present the "upsides" for weighing along side the "downsides" of such practices.

By the way, Clark: Are you one of those arguing that the grunts at Abu Ghraib were misguided zealots acting on their own and that those responsible for being in charge neither suggested this activity nor bear any responsibility?

Clark, I am sure you are right that there are many good people in the military and the intelligence community. I don't think you see the "liberal media" suggesting to the contrary. You haven't really addressed my question, though, except to say that you can't address it because the answers are "classified." A spectacular plot was foiled. Was torture used in extracting the information that foiled the plot? If torture is so effective, why are we not seeing those who argue that we need to use torture argue that it actually works? We're having the debate anyway, your own fear that public debate is weakening the war effort aside, so why don't they just come out and say it? (That would be something directly on the issue like: in X% of the cases where we use torture, we get information that was not available by other means - not: remember that plot three years ago that we stopped?) Pardon my cynicism, but this sounds a lot like the President arguing that he can't be subject to any oversight.