mattp

On their website it says this:

If there is actually a clause written into the Deed, as I understand that there is, it would certainly be a part of the "public domain." I would guess that any such condition relating to the transfer is public information whether it is on the Deed or not, but getting a copy of it might be difficult for any number of reasons.

The difference COULD have something to do with the fact that the State Parks wants to and probably should encourage people to donate valuable and scenic properties like this for public use. You are certainly right that they probably COULD impose a closure but wouldn't this suggest to other future potential donors that any requirements they might put on property they are giving to the State are subject to being disregarded? As to the cocksucker part, my guess is that a ranger or Audubon Society member reading this discussion is not going to conclude it is THEY who are the cocksuckers. The information about how the falcons can tolerate climbing activity is probably not what they get as a "take away" lesson here.

Ranting on line is certainly part of cc.com's mission. Carry on.

As I understand it, they cannot close the trail. When the former private property owner deeded Beacon Rock to the State he specified that they could not close the trail. I've never climbed at Beacon and I don't have any basis to disagree with your statement that the birds seemed to get along with climbers OK in the past. I'm simply suggesting that complaining about "inconsistent government bullshit" or railing on the blue haired Audubon members who are about to croak anyway may not further our cause. Those folks will read your posts and conclude that there is at least one rock climber they will probably never be able to work with.

It is not that simple, Mr. Pink. As I said, you could be right that the closure at Beacon may in fact be broader than necessary, and I suppose it may not be necessary at all. The Audubon guy said every case is different and in every case it is hard to know just what the birds can tolerate except by seeing in hindsight where they are disrupted and nesting fails. I'm willing to bet, though, that the head ranger at Beacon Rock hasn't decided to impose a closure just for the hell of it: I think he's trying to do his job and he actually puts a lot of work into managing Beacon specifically so that we CAN climb there. It may well be the case that the birds can tolerate the hiker traffic but are more disturbed by climbers. All in all, I bet you'll be on the losing side of the argument if you argue that at least some restriction in climbing activity during the nesting season is not warranted. The Audubon Society guy offered the story of an active nest on a bridge in Portland where the parents became highly alarmed by the addition of a small 6 foot long scaffold near but out of sight from their nest. I believe him when he said that the nest would have failed had it not been removed. The nest was built on a busy bridge, and daily traffic did not bother the birds. A change in the use pattern near their nest during the crucial part of the nesting season WAS a real threat. I agree that the Audubon Society may not be working to actively promote our interests. The same could be said about many other groups like, for example, the historical enthusiasts celebrating the old wagon train days at City of Rocks or some of the more strident conservation groups who might like to see a wide variety of recreational use more tightly restricted, but we have to figure out how to work with them. I don't think the Audubon Society or most of these other groups have a specific idea that they dislike rock climbing so much as they are simply doing what they do. They are kind of like us in that respect.

If you really don't want to work hard, the classic south face of the Aiguille Midi is a moderate rock climb that is easily reached with a 20 minute walk from the tram. You walk downhill to the base of the climb and it tops out back at the station. It is great rock, has fantastic ambiance, and well worth it! The Verdon Gorge has some of the most fun climbing anywhere and it is relatively family-friendly as most of the climbs are easily reached with a picnic basket and you can even stay within voice contact if you want but you get the thrills of being 1000 feet off the deck (you rap in from the top). Partners are easy to come by as you can just walk back and forth along the rim and easily see who is who. It is not too far from Nice but not right there.

Thanks for the heads up. By the way, I saw a Peregrine in the parking lot next to my office the other day. Cool bird. I've recently learned a little more about their habits and a guy from the Audubon Society convinced me that the fact that they nest in urban Seattle, or even that they could get used to hikers on a nearby hiking trail, does not mean they won't be spooked or even mortally stressed by rock climbers. It is all situation dependent and it could be the case that the closure at Beacon is broader than it needs to be but there is no easy way to know. Good luck with the monitoring, Joseph.

Goatboy has the right idea. If weather and snow conditions are favorable, you could have a good five day trip to the southern Pickets but if I were you I'd keep in mind some alternate destinations. The east side of the range might offer some slightly drier alternatives but in stormy weather the higher areas around Washington Pass and Leavenworth are likely to be hard hit as well. You might end up cragging or something. Don't fear the brush. The horror stories you read are true but you can avoid that nightmare by doing a little homework before you go and paying attention once you hit the trail.

Bug, I agree with some of what you are saying but this is a little bit overstated in my opinion. Certainly there are lots of groups that have been subject to that kind of disrespect on cc.com, whether it is fat people, gays, police, or members of the Mountaineers. Yes, there are lot of vociferous posters around here who tend to be intolerant of any discussion of religion and maybe the moderators don't intervene in the manner that you think they should. But in my opinion the Mt. Hood and Denali partners threads became unsightly mostly because some folks go a little too far with the idea that cc.com is their own personal playground -- to the point that "outsiders" are unwelcome at times. I don't think this treatment is exclusively reserved for Christians. It is what it is, though, and that sense of familiarity we have with each other is sometimes part of the charm of this place.

You're losing it Jay. I have never argued that we should "tailor our policies to suit the terrorists preferences," never proposed any negotiation process with any imaginary group who could advise us as to what "They" want and how to assure that if we grant it "they" will stop attacking us, or any of the other ridiculous stuff you type here. I don't believe any of the Birkenstock clad metrosexuals you so deride ever have. Its good to see you finally admit that our actions "clearly do" inspire terrorists. We can put the straw man to bed now. What kind of Kayak are you gonna buy with your rebate so the economy can get better?

OK, Jay: so now you admit that different actors act at different times with different motivations. So were you just playing games when you argued, yesterday, that the fact Spain was targeted proves that our Iraq adventure doesn’t inspire any terrorists? Just yesterday you asserted that the fact of an attack in Spain proves that we would be no less likely to be targeted if we pulled out, and since I never advocated any rapid withdrawal in the first place I assume you must mean that if you want to narrow your claim even further to mean that our heavy footprint in the region doesn’t inspire terrorist attack. As further proof, you point out that the 911 hijackers couldn’t have been inspired by our Iraq invasion because it hadn’t happened. Don’t you remember that the 911 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia and we’d had bases there for years? Bin Laden even spoke about this on a couple of occasions if I recall correctly. --- What do you mean - not a fan of the rebate? You can take that $600.00 and buy one hell of a nice made in China mountain tent!

Just a couple of hundred feet below Ivan's bivy is a roomier spot. on top of a tower that is quite prominent in the "overview" photo looking back at "the monster" above, standing directly below the base of the route. There is some steep snow climbing from this point to the rock, so it might mean some icy snow in the morning, but if you want to leave stuff behind it would be easier to return and pick up your stash after descending the Beckey route. One other note: I believe we avoided what is described here as "the long strenuous" second 5.9 pitch by traversing right 150 feet or more to a corner system leading straight up to the crest just short of the summit. We'd been warned that the "tempting" cracks heading up and left were a mistake. Long and strenuous, maybe?

Have you read it? Can you offer a synopsis?

I'm interested in this. My experience in various settings has indicated this is always a concern. Yes, we can trade e-mail and maybe a word document, but is file sharing really that easy when you actually want to work on things using different machines? My wife is looking at a MacPro for giving slideshow presentations, but will we be able to trade working files back and forth with our desktop PC? Many applications store files in their own format and I typically convert into the "standard" formats when we're done with a drawing, photoedit, layout, or creating a publication of some sort. Are we going to have to purchase a bunch of new software so that we can work on both systems? Or, if we buy her an external keyboard and mouse and monitor so she can have a full-sized interface while working at home, will she be happy simply using that? Does that not suggest simply buying a desktop Mac in addition to the laptop?

Don't start that up again, Kevbone. Jay seems to argue that if one terrorist cell was discovered in Newfoundland it proves the terrorists hate Canada just as much as they hate the US and will attack there for the same reasons. Its nonsense anyway. Lets get back to the rebate. Cocoa posts that it doesn't matter whether the economic stimulus is pandering or not - the point is to stimulate "consumer confidence." I know that has been accepted standard wisdom, but I've recently heard that tax rebates have in the past generated NO demonstrable impact on the economy. Is that true? Is it one of those things like "trickle on everybody" economics that is not prove-able or maybe even proven not to work but folks just like the idea anyway?

Cutting the gas tax would certainly inject some money into the system because it could presumably be put into place fairly quickly, but I don't understand your capital gains tax proposal. Capital gains taxes were lowered in 2003 and I'm not clear whether anybody thinks this did or will stimulate the economy. And capital gains taxes are a tax on profit from sales of appreciated assets, so I'm a little unclear on the connection between decreased capital gains and increased economic activity. How would this work?

Good morning everybody. Does anybody here think the "stimulus plan" is going to work? I'll be glad to spend my rebate on some new climbing gear if that will help, but isn't this just baldfaced pandering to the electorate in an election year?

I'm with you when it comes to access, Fairweather. I believe that one of the reasons we have wilderness is so that people can enjoy it - within limits of course, and I support management for long-term preservation of wildlife populations, habitat, and just plain wild places too. I support reopening of the Dosewallips road, along with the Suiattle and the White Chuck and the Carbon... though I'm willing to admit I have not really studied any of these projects very closely and I might be convinced otherwise if I knew more about them. But I think you are missing the mark where you seem to refuse to acknowledge that someone might "respectably" disagree.

Is this the thread where we argue about where to go and end up with somebody complaining that "those guys" hijacked pubclub, three people post that they won't make it, and three others proclaim they won't show up if it is to be at THAT place? Porter just wants to hand out some tee shirts, for gawd sake. What would Oprah say? Is Dr. Phil available? I think they'd say it should be at the pub next to MY house.

This appears to establish that Jay can't seem to fathom the possibility that there may be more than one set of motivating factors that influence different groups of actors in different locations or at different times. The fact that some may target Spain does not in any way disprove the idea that the way we are going about our War on Terror or our attempt to establish permanent bases in Iraq may motivate others. You're wasting your time arguing, Hugh. -------- Lets get back to the stimulus plan. Does anybody really think that a tax rebate is going to cure a bad economy? David Brooks said tonight that nothing like that has ever had any measurable influence on the economy (he might have said it did once back in 1950 or something). And Ron Paul last night put it this way: "they can print money and hand it out but this won't fix the fundamental problems with the economy." Paul was referring both to the interest cut AND the tax rebate. Its great that the Democrats and Republicans are falling all over each other to "get out in front" on this, but is this really anything more than pandering? Whadda you think, Jay? Will it work?

This is typical of the nonsense that you spew so often here. First of all, to argue that we are whacking the hornet's nest in Iraq is NOT the same thing as saying that the terrorists would not attack us if we left and, second, the fact that somebody targetted Spain may be evidence, but is certainly not any kind of "proof" that "they" would attack us or that "they" would attack us just as often if we had a diffferent image around the world.

He's goiong to have a difficult time meeting your challenge, Al. Yes, several blame-America-first lefties have said that our actions have given rise to a whole generation of terrorists and the Al Queda uses our occupation of Iraq in their recruiting posters but, as you point out, his characterization of "the concensus of the left" is little more than a cartoon character that does not really exist. I'm curious, JayB: do YOU think that we would quickly see terrorist attacks in Boston or Seattle if we pulled back or substantnially pulled back our fores in Iraq?

I thought he was trying to say that if we abandon our selfless efforts to promote freedom in Iraq the terrorists will show up in Seattle.

Because a bunch of got-hating terrorists who hate freedom built their country on top of our oil.