mattp

OK, Clark. It is either torture them or simply ask nicely and then discontinue any further inquiry? I don't doubt that we have gotten good information out of some of them but that doesn't begin to answer the questions I'd want answered: how often? What other techniques may produce good results? Have we REALLY foiled a bunch of plots that otherwise would not have been stopped? In other words: is is worth it in light of the substantial downsides here?

Not to mention the fact that a sizable minority was against much of this from the very beginning. In my own case, Jay seems to be accusing me of hypocrisy for maintaining largely the same position since September 11, 2001. He's been consistent, though, I'd have to say: he's been calling me "paranoid" and "obsessed" and referring to my Birkenstocks all along.

Apart from the questions of morality or whether you want our guys to face the same kind of interrogation techniques, has anyone here seen where there is a convincing case being made that torture can be expected to extract good intelligence? I haven't heard even the war hawks argue that it is "necessary" or a "good idea" so much as to argue that we have to be unconstrained in our war against terror because the bad guys want to kill us.

Really? Torture or aggressive interrogation is to be judged as valid or invalid based on the political calculations made in secret among a small group of legislators at a time when the nation was eating up our president's lies and any criticism of the war drums was feared as political suicide?

I've done the North Ridge of Pinnacle Peak twice, and I think it is an outstanding climb. It is about five short pitches, all with a good belay, and it is a whole lotta fun. I've heard it sucks as a summer climb, but I cannot think of a short mildly technical winter climb that I've enjoyed more. It is three times the fun of, for example, Lovers Lane or The Zipper on Lane Peak. It is more exposed and it can have unstable cornices on it, though, and there are some mildly difficult bits where you don't want to fall. It isn't an ice climb per se -- more of an easy mixed climb -- but I used ice screws and tools both times I've climbed it.

Get a grip here, Builder. In the context of an ogoing discussion, your post is obnoxious. I neither sidetracked the discussion nor insulted anybody. --- Back on track, I think Mike's comment/questinon has merit. I think that, to a degree, the "don't place your child in such risk" posters assume that the potential climber/father has insufficient skills and judgment. It could be no more hazardous to pack a child up Mt. Hood than to take them on any number of outings that these responsible parents would probably approve of.

Feck, you're repeating an argument we've had once or twice a year since the site began. I've seen plenty of kids have a good time on tele gear and it doesn't necessarily follow that if they learn to telemark they'll become fans of String Cheese Incident. If I had kids I'd encouage them to learn to ski because they'll almost certainly take up boarding in fairly short order if they stick with lift assisted snowfun but a skiing background might serve them well at some future point if they become interested in the backcountry. It might be a waste of time but so are piano lessons. Tele or Alpine? Your choice but if I was going to try to teach my nepew to ski it'd probably be alpine just because it'd be easier and good used gear would be more available.

December 13 is Thursday of this coming week. Time to dig out that holiday cheer.

I appreciate your sense of responsibility, Clements, but I think you may be taking it a bit too far. I first went winter mountaineering at age 11, led peak climbs in the Sierra's at age 13, led 5.6 in the Gunks at age 14, and climbed technical rock in the Tetons at age 15. I did none of this at my parents' suggestion, but certainly I had their permission. I hope you will allow your son to take responsibility for deciding what he wants to do before he reaches the age of majority, and that may well include climbing a real mountain with his father - or perhaps with somebody else.

Respect, maybe, but really I think we're talking about just plain consideration here. Respect implies a bit more of an appreciation for what the route developer is doing than many of us may have for a given project. The way you use it, I think it also implies some obligation and i think it is the notion of "obligation" that Cocoa is questioning. I think it is more like a golden rule kind or thing: do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. If you know they guy wouldn't want you to jump on his line, you should ask yourself why you might be compelled to ignore his wishes? And then consider what that says about whether he or anybody else should pay attention to yours in some other instance? We could make up all kinds of scenarios here where climber A or climber B is "asking too much," but the basic answer involves more of a sniff test than a black and white rule in my opinion.

Do as you must, cocoa, but if you know that somebody cleans and bolts a route, and they're working on the first redpoint and, further if you know they'd be upset if you jumped on it, I'd say you would be a jerk to ignore their wishes just because six months and a week have gone by.

I agree that public lands are public and all, so the idea that we have "exclusive rights" to say who can and cannot climb "our" route, or when they can climb it, is marginal at best. However, there is plenty that is asinine about climbing and that doesn't stop us from having all kinds of expectations regarding other climbers' behavior.

I strongly disagree with the idea that you have no right to ask or expect any consideration from anyone and we should all keep our projects secret. I realize that is not exactly what you said, and I agree that, yes, there will always be assholes out there. But quite often it is the secretive ones who are the assholes and efforts toward secrecy may heighten mistrust, drive competition, and cause other problems.

i say it'd be pretty cold to go jump on the guy's line a week later, that's for sure. Especially if you know the climber is still involved with his project, or at least was recently involved with it, why not climb something else? I've taken a couple of years to complete a route and while I wouldn't have been completely shattered if somebody jumped on it mid-stream, I would certainly have thought that person was a bit of a jerk if they knew what the status was.

I'm wiith you, Moore. I don't think the statement that "we'll impeach him if he attacks Iran without Congressional approval" means very much. Bush and Cheney have already started one disastrous war and they are making it clear that they want to do it again. Maybe they will maybe they won't, but clearly they have the ability and inclination to play games with intelligence and with Congress.

The gold plated Sierra Club cup was pretty sweet.

Sketchy for sure. I've been that way a few times myself. Bourbon? I don't think it will help much. ' It is a trail the same way that "Beanberry Delight" is a route. Good luck. A better bet is to get Whitelaw's CD, or maybe Gunstone put it in the Traveller's Guide. The approach straight up from the road below (to the base of both the first and third teeth of The Comb) is far easier than thrashing accross from 3:00 Rock.

Don't believe everything you read in Rock Climbing Washington. There never was a trail over from 3:00 rock. Two guys went that way once, but it was never a good idea. Many have followed. Right now, I'm just hoping the road makes it through the night.

The one on our block sold. A family with two children bought a 4,500 square foot house with 4 1/2 bathrooms, built from crap materials with no craftsmanship or design. Its got granite countertops and a jacuzzi, though. I can see the plusses: they have a view, there will be little to maintain in the short term at least, and there's a lot of room. But for the money they spent they could have bought a nice home. They probably could have bought better neighbors, too. They've got a major snob two doors down.

That looks pretty similar to the house built two doors down from us. I am amazed that people want that sort of thing! Then again, I never understood Cadillacs or Coach purses either.

They have shown themselves spineless on foreign policy and many of the big issue domestic policy matters, for sure. With the voting public so divided, they are doing calculations about how to be just over 50% on everything, and that means taking few controversial stands. But the Dems are not so much into trickle on economics as are their pals in the Republican party, the Democrats are more generally supportive of public education, they are somewhat better on a variety of environmental issues, etc. compared to their Republican counter-parts. Its too bad the Democrats can't take a play from Newt Gingrich playbook 1and see that they might benefit from having a clear platform and sticking to it, but the two parties are distinct.

He may sound a bit like him, Eric, but he right - in a way. I'm just as cynical as the next about how the Democrats are putting politics ahead of responsible representation and I'm doubtful we'll do the major things a lot differently in Iraq no matter who is elected but there IS a real difference between the liberals and conservatives, or between the Republicans and Democrats, on a whole lot of important issues. And those jackasses in the Whitehouse are definitely crazy enough to start another war for no good reason if they think they can make money or political hay in so doing. I doubt Hilary is THAT maniacal, but you never know.

You're right there, Pink. There are some fine lines here. I guess I was reacting not only to the hair and the body building, but the whole grand production of more than one of your death-metal band videos (maybe you don't consider it death metal because that refers to a more specific genre, but that horror show wailing, big light's and wall of sound and thrash dancing stuff is a long way from the origins of punk). Some of the others I've watched in your links over the past few days could not be called glam rock, as you point out, but there is a commercial element I associate with pop or something. What did you think of Gang of Four? Their earlier stuff had that crudeness that was a part of punk at the outset.

Good catch, Archy. Woofy probably did not intend his post the way I read it. Discussions like this one are a good distraction on rainy days and more than anything else he's probably just hoping the rain will turn back to snow.

From what I understand, they do not grant or deny a permit based on an attempt to determine someone's competence, and I think this is probably a good idea. I believe the rangers know that they can't judge a book by its cover, for one thing. Years ago, they used to make you fill out a climbing resume and show them your gear before they would allow you to depart Paradise for a winter climb. I remember listing climbs back to when I was twelve and having to show them how much fuel we had, and explaining that we knew how to use our avalanche cords (before Pieps), wands, etc. It was a pain in the neck for both climbers and rangers, and I doubt it contributed to safety on the mountain except to the extent that it may have discouraged some of the most unprepared or at least those who were both unprepared and afraid to deal with authorities. You climb 5.11 and WI-5? Great stuff but, from reviewing your application I doubt they can accurately determine whether you know how to navigate in a white out or keep yourself warm in freezing rain. Also, I think they rightfully worry that if they put themselves in the position of determining who is qualified or not they will be taking a step toward being responsible if they make the wrong call. What do you want to bet that they would have regretted it if the rangers at Mt. Hood had "pre-approved" the team's qualification for the ill-fated and media spectacular climb of the North Face last Christmas - and that a consideration of the qualifications or experience of the climb's participants would have led to the conclusion they were qualified?