pope

OK. I agree that it is reasonable to ask him to be less abrasive. To expect it? Well, maybe, maybe not. I admit I'm a little biased because I think his contributions and comments about bolt abuse are not only on the mark but also hilarious. Regardless of your interpretation of the maturity of his behavior and the value of his offerings, I think it would be unfortunate to excommunicate him. That sounds too much like the tactics of those who support the Patriot Act, not a sage liberal.

I agree with you about that thing, Pope, but I believe you have just shown how little you get out. That aesthetic masterpiece has been there for several years, if I am not mistaken. You are right to argue that, just because your proposed rules of ethical bolting are old does not mean that they are no longer relevant. However, the "ground up" ethic is not only outdated, but it is just plain nonsense. And I suspect that you and others who advocate this approach are using it as a cloak for the real point that you hope such a rule would mean fewer routes being put up. A thoughtful and responsible routesetter can do a much better, safer, and cleaner job of putting up a route on rappel than they can on lead. They can also take the time to think about setting a route that will serve other people, instead of merely trying not to break their own neck and making their own accomplishment. If, on a given crag, there were going to be a certain number of new routes with a certain number of bolts, I'd much rather see them developed on rappel than on lead. If you and other "traditionalists" want to control who gets to put up routes and how many bolts they can use, lets have that discussion rather than some outdated and distracting discussion about leadership style. Careful there, Dad. Maybe I'm getting out more than you think. That aesthetic masterpiece left of Saints has been erased for more than a year now! Maybe you're the guy who needs to get out. You're on to me. I feel that adoption of a ground-up ethic would limit the number of new bolts and that would make me happy. However, I also feel that people who wish to put up bolted routes would feel three times the satisfaction from their projects once they try this. It is manly, it is real. It is leading. WITH SKILL AND EXPERIENCE, ground-up bolting is safe and the results can be very satisfactory for subsequent parties. I can drill a 3/8" hole in Leavenworth rock while hanging on a hook in about 15-20 minutes. I'm not saying that everybody needs to do it my way at every cliff, I just think that at certain cliffs, this should be the standard. The result would be that hardly any new bolts would be added, but also those that are added would be respected.

A formula for restoration success!

Well, perhaps they're no longer in vogue. However, had we continued to play by these rules, the mess we call Frenchman's Coulee wouldn't exist. Climbers wouldn't even consider retro-bolting at Castle Rock, Leavenworth. Without todays number of bolt-dependent routes and entire climbing areas (like the cave from which 400+ bolts were removed), we wouldn't have the crowds and the impact they bring. You can't refute an argument about the way things should be by simply stating how things currently are. That's not an argument. Furthermore, not every abandoned idea is a bad idea, even if you feel it was "left in the dust". Not much more than a year ago, I walked up to Castle Rock and noted a line of bolts on the arete that forms the Saints dihedral. This "climb" ended at a hanging belay just two feet below the massive ledge that is 40 feet up the Angel route. In an effort to stabilize loose blocks on this "new creation", somebody had pounded wooden wedges into several cracks. The whole thing just looked like shit. Am I supposed to just say, "Well, sport climbing is here to stay so I guess we'll just accept this chicken-shit addition to Castle's cragging."?

Place only 3/8" or larger bolts and place them well. Place them on the lead to save your life and drill by hand. If you can't handle this approach, don't put them in. Wait 'til a bigger stud than you are does it, then be content to clip up later and pretend you're leading. Or top-rope the route. Or go to a piece-of-shit cliff where your weak practices are commonplace. No bolts next to cracks. No new bolts on routes people have been leading or top-roping for years without bolts. There you have it. Logical and "thouht-out". Play by these rules and you'll stop the spread of sport climbing and feel good about your relationship with the environment. Nobody cares that nobody cares 'bout me.

This is.....um......Sphinx and PP matching wits?

So, Peter has this new forum called "rock sport" or "bolt climbing" or something like that, where all sorts of serious rock climbing talk transpires, and where spray is banned, and where perhaps Dwayner will be banned from "bitching about bolts".......I think this is how you refer to Dwayner's viewpoints when you can't match wits with him and what he has to say pisses you right off. Anyway, it's been more than a year since I had the idea for this resoration forum, where pussies like .....oh, I'll be discrete and not name names here.....WOULD be allowed to contribute but would be utterly ignored by those of us who take our work seriously. Jon, Tim and other national-socialist members of the moderatorial board.......when can we expect to see this new restoration forum? Huh?

He's one of the few who regularly represents a traditional viewpoint. You're welcome to join him.

As a fellow liberal, I'm a little surprised by your pragmatic interpretation of the 1st Amendment. Apparently, what you desire for this board is the realization of a forum in which like-minded people can spend the day agreeing with each other. Just so long as nobody disagrees with your opinion or with the majority viewpoint, as long as they are capable of contributing to the montone.....then and only then do you, MattP, support the free and unrestricted exchange of ideas. My advice to the man for whom I coined the phrase "effortlessly cool" ? On those days when being cool DOES require a little effort......it's still worth the effort. If you exclude Dwayner from these discussions, you might wish to change the name of the site to CASCADESPORTCLIMBERS.COM Good night, gentlemen.

Nothing better defines the word "robotic" by example than the perfunctory way in which you employ the word "nonresponsive" to anybody who won't give YOU and your disjoint logic the time of day.

From my experience with this I would have to disagree. Even the most careful cavers can disturb bat breeding or hibernating colonies. They have a very narrow range of tolerance of temperature and humidity, and an extremely high metabolic rate. Disturbing them out of a rest state, even if they don't fly, causes them to lose use precious energy. There's some good papers out there on the energy dynamics regarding recreation disturbance to bats and the consequences, to bats not people. So while the USFS should be ripped for many of their environmental policies they did the right thing here. Goes with climbing too, not every place has to be open as an outdoor gym. Dude, your paragraph has too many polysyllabic words for your average sport climber to process. You should try something like, "Bats are good."

Boooo hoooo. This is terrible news. I just feel sick!

When I did it (before it was in a guide), folks were saying it was 5.10d and it seemed reachy/strenuous. Not at all bad (probably **) for a short, bolted line.

Too bad the best development on this site since "The Year of Big Lou" was so ephemeral.

Oh, I thought he was on a jet ski. Maybe that wouldn't have been appropriate for a 50's sit-com.

Did Rumr bring his GriGri?

To what?

What is ACTUALLY funny is that Dwayner still finds entertainment value among all of the dull folks who regularly contribute to this long-since-done-jet-ski-jumped-the-predator-fish site. I don't know where he's at today. I'm home sick.

Erik, you're a big disappointment. The only time we drank I received the impression that you just might have cultivated wisdom not commonly evident in a young man. Oh well. "Bolts are here to stay, and opposing them is out of style?" Jeeesh. Do you think before you write? You've got about the same level of moral conviction as our last two presidents. But you're a nice guy. The rest of you looooosers deserve one another. Peter wishes for a groovy forum AND hopes to moderate it? Aren't these two desires mutually exclusive? I don't think Dwayner EVER suggested bolt clippers are gay....just far too willing to embrace what amounts to littering (and that trash proves difficult to remove!), challenge reduction (by removing risk and replacing it with something like the experience at Ronald McDonald's Play Land), the crowds that converge on this new type of experience, and the goofy affectations they are likely to adopt.

Uh......dude, you're quite a dildo. I'm surprised you didn't see this as another opportunity to post a photo of yourself.

Big Fat Idiot is a great read. Imagine Rush, who constantly decries social engineering and the evil liberals who perpetuate it.....imagine a young, healthy (albeit obese) Rush receiving welfare checks and redistributing the money to the neighbor boy who mowed his lawn! Had I not read Big Fat Idiot, I would then possess only a partial grasp of what a hypocrite and a dork he is. This guy's your role model?

That thing is so big, it makes its own weather. Dwayner's Jimmy is so big, it's got a press agent. That thing is so big, it bends light. It's so big even Messner used O2.

Please tell your mom to stop calling me. Oh, and uh....what business do you have equating bouldering with alpine climbing? You ain't even climbed old Raindog!

Absurd. Only three of the pursuits mentioned in this dubious equation require precisely the qualities that Ben Bowman suggests allowed him passage on "the Big Ben": guts, skill and determination. I might add that wall climbing and alpine ascents often require a lust for adventure and tolerance for physical suffering. Bouldering requires only steel fingers and a crowd of pad people, sporting the latest affectation of teen-age hipsters' culture. The adventure and commitment found on the side of a boulder is better equated to playing Game Boy on level 3. Not that bouldering isn't fun......just don't pretend you're on top of Everest when you mantle 10 feet above your little crash pads.

I'll sell you just about anything you want to buy (with cash).