pope

Sorry to divert this thread a bit, but this is why I believe you see such a big bunch of computer and science geek types engaging in rock climbing. The cool jocks in high school were usually the ones with the coordination, speed and reaction time necessary for most of the "ball" sports. The geeks needed to focus on other things like science, computers and sh*t, ..................until they discovered rock climbing and peak bagging. Mentioning coordination, Stimson was a boxing champ in college. His book River Dark and Bright (Willows Press) is a fascinating read. Here's a great quote from his memoir: One notion grew to become a fixed conviction: that you should strive to fulfill your own potential. You should try to put out all your energies in pursuit of your ends so that you go to the junkyard with no gas left in your tank. This man is a role model for all who intend to live beyond their youth.

OK, here's another one. What's the difference between a goat and a donkey? Wrong! Trask has them both tied up, but the donkey doesn't give it up without drinks.

Question: What's the difference between a goat and a chicken? Answer: Trask doesn't have a chicken tied up in his bedroom.....yet.

I enjoyed reading your post, Jeffski. Sounds like you guys had a satisfying adventure. I did the route with a guy who was following 5.11 pithces in Squamish and he thought the chimney pitch was a bitch. The quality of that route is tough to match.

Dude, right on! Details please. Was this the big climb for which you were soliciting bivi secrets?

Wow! Check out hangdogwatchdog's response to the clown who started this discussion!

Certainly Squamish has some great climbing. But why are we comparing it with Index? Everybody knows that for sunny granite and wild nightlife, the place to be is Leavenworth. Midnight rock rivals any single cliff in Squamish, there is plenty of monkey business for the "pad people", and the chances of unfriendly encounters with mobs of disgruntled, 3rd-world youths are slim. Leavenworth is where I find most of our lily-white neighbors from the Province when it's raining up there......eh? Squamish has far more sport climbing (translates to a "plus" in the Leavenworth column). Finally, in Leavenworth, one may be lucky enough to experience Dwayner's nightlife tour, during which the location of "fellatio dumpster" is revealed. Yes, Dru, Neil Young is Canadian and cool. However, he is negated by Brian Adams.

I saw your link...no really, I did. But since noboy responded, I thought I'd package it more cleverly. BTW, I don't think anybody mentioned the double-occupancy bivi sack in your bivi tips solicitation.

Or is that NUDE AVERSIONS? "I got the one with the biggest rack."

OK, potty mouth, I guess we're talking apples and oranges. I climb a 5.11d (which at the time should have been over my limit) on-sight with a bowline on my ass and you're not impressed. Fine. You're invited to emulate. I'm not saying that, from a sport-monkey's perspective, the climbing along I-90 is poor, and I'm not trying to diminish your accomplishments (I just don't understand all of the effort for 90 feet of rock). I'm simply saying that I've been pleasantly surprised by how well I climbed the advertised grades at the few sport cliffs I've visited (and Ronald McDonald Play Land).

I don't think the 3rd pitch is A1. Sure, all you have to do is clip that crap, but unless things have been upgraded, I remember a sequence of several questionable fixed pieces.

Dude, that image thing...which character are you?

I can't remember the names. It was 5.11d....no, not really. It was advertised 5.11d. It sure seemed easier but what do I know. I'm sure the 5.13's at Exit 32 are difficult. Since I can't flash those grades, I generally avoid them, and I wouldn't be able to compare them to 5.13's at another venue. How do you sport-monkeys measure the difficulty of a particular 5.13? How many weeks it takes to aid....oops, I mean, "work" the moves?

I went out to Exit 32 and and flashed something about five letter grades above my limit. I spent the rest of the day climbing at or a couple of grades above my limit and flashed everything I tried. At Smith one year I climbed my hardest route of the season with a bowline instead of a harness. Let's face it: these areas are soft.

My last bivi was not planned. I stayed comfortable with a busty girl and her wolf-dog. The secret is.....go with a busty girl. Also, go in July/August and you could probably survive in a swim suit.

Yeah, I broke a rib laughing at that one. There are 5.10 routes in Squamish that would check in at solid 5.8 in Yosemite.

Here's the scale as I see it (from full-value sandbag to grades so easy you think you're climbing in a reduced gravitational field): Yosemite Joshua Tree Leavenworth (old school, as in Castle Rock/Midnight) Index Squamish Smith Leavenworth (any slab bolted since 1985) Ronald McDonald Play Land My favorite bar stool Exit 32/ 38/ anything along I-90

High five, young Prof. You've packed a lot of wisdom into your few years. And don't worry 'bout PP's juvenile insults ("go back to HS"). Remember, he's the one admonishing everybody to keep on the debate's topic.

Dwayner's a talented guy. He is an accomplished pianist, speaks six or seven languages and has climbed 5.11 off the couch. Could he climb 5.13 givin all of the cheating that sport climbers employ? Maybe, but it's more likely that he'd never devote the time required for all of that rehearsing and clowning around on the end of a rope. HE'S GOT A LIFE! I think we are up to $400 between myself, Kurt, Slaphappy, and RuMr. That'd buy a whole lot of Mickeys, my friend. You've just listed three climbers who aren't doing 5.13 inspite of their whole-hearted embrace of sport climbing.

Now just when did I say anything about placing bolts with Dick. At least try to be more responsive to what was actually said. I am glad your one evening with Dick was so memorable. See you do have a thing for the climbing legends of Washington! I thought you did protest too much. PP I hate injecting comments like this but Pope's response is so all over the place that I will. After reminding us that you and Richard are practically best friends, you then stated that his only complaints about sport climbs are directed toward those which do not end on ledges. Then you informed us that Richard has parallel disapproval of crack routes that end similarly. Did I read correctly? Well kind of here is what I actually said: "Pope's comments are as usual full of vitriol and goofiness. Why he quotes Dick I am not sure but I can say that I have spent many hours bouldering and climbing sport routes with Dick. His main whine about sport routes is that many end in space rather than at a ledge/stance. To him this is a bogus route. The same would hold true to a crack which ended at a blank section." I wrote we went sport climbing and your characterizing this as "reminding us that we are best of friends" is simply not true. This alone makes your restatement inaacurate. But a greater inacuracy come from this coment of yours: "you then stated that his only complaints about sport climbs are directed toward those which do not end on ledges." WHat I actually said was:"His main whine about sport routes is that many end in space rather than at a ledge/stance." There is a distinct difference. If I was the kind to view humans negatively I would think such errors were made with malice but since I do not I will assume it was an honest mistake. snipped away some BS here Anyway beside misrepresenting what I wrote your post is entirely consistant with what I said. Dick and I have climbed many sport routes. To find over engineered and squeezed in routes not as attractive as those less engineered and spread out is I would think a fairly common reaction and does not equate with hating all sport routes. Another thing that was memorable was when Richard kept returning to our camp fire night after night, stating that we were the most entertaining group in Hidden Valley. you're so precious Pope PP Main whine/only complaint. God, this distinction is just enormous now, isn't it? But isn't that a classic PP tactic? When you're eating your liver, when your so full of your own horse manure that your eyes are turning brown, reach for anything you can, Peter! The spirit and intent of your drivel was to get your audience (Christ, look at them all) to believe that Dick doesn't object to the application of bolting as it is currently practiced at the majority of sport cliffs. My conversations with Dick left me to believe otherwise. Sweet dreams.

Yes, by all means enjoy what rock climbing has to offer and do whatever makes you a better climber, etc. etc. etc. But keep in mind that top-roping can teach you everything you need to know about strength and endurance/flowing over stone or whatever. If trad leads give you the ultimate sense of accomplishment, I don't think clipping bolts offers much more in the way of preparation than does top-roping. The best way to gain confidence and improve is to lead hundreds of pitches this season that are within your current level. It will make you strong and give you the familiarity with gear placements and such so that pushing one grade higher will feel like no big deal. Clipping bolts in an effort to gain facility with trad gear is like playing tennis in order to get ready for a swim meet. My $0.03.

Now just when did I say anything about placing bolts with Dick. At least try to be more responsive to what was actually said. I am glad your one evening with Dick was so memorable. See you do have a thing for the climbing legends of Washington! I thought you did protest too much. PP After reminding us that you and Richard are practically best friends, you then stated that his only complaints about sport climbs are directed toward those which do not end on ledges. Then you informed us that Richard has parallel disapproval of crack routes that end similarly. Did I read correctly? Now, if this is the case, if this is Richard's only objection to sport climbs, then isn't it interesting that he that claimed never to have placed a bolt? Sounds to me like he has more objections to sport climbing than you are suggesting. I'm pretty sure he does, based on the last conversation I had with him (which has been a couple of years). One thing that was memorable about that conversation was how Richard said he thought the climbing in Joshua Tree was so much better than at the City of Rocks. Why? His primary reason was that JOSHUA TREE SEEMED FAR MORE NATURAL, FAR LESS ENGINEERED. He pointed out how many climbs at Joshua Tree do not have belay anchors. Even a large number of top-rope problems had no anchor, requiring that you spend time rigging a anchor that might even require a second rope. I remember thinking at the time that this was an extreme anti-bolt attitude, but with time it began to make sense. Another thing that was memorable was when Richard kept returning to our camp fire night after night, stating that we were the most entertaining group in Hidden Valley. Richard's not my hero. I only brought up his name in connection with the quote (that aid climbing is just crude engineering and not worth the effort). I do think his attitude sets him apart. He's put up some extremely difficult boulder and TR problems. He could have bolted some of these but he either thought it wasn't worth the effort or (and I suspect this is equally accurate), his sense of aesthetics wouldn't allow it. I've had a number of conversations with Dick Cilley. Most weren't memorable ("You want to buy some cams? No? See ya"). Peter, I'm impressed with indefatigable ability to swallow your own foot. Don't go changin' to try to please me.

Alpine, I believe you's older than I's. You're advising folks to ignore our advice? My advice to y'all is to get a crowbar (Alpine K has one .... but mine is bigger, as he found out when we met at Index one day with the intent of joining forces to retard the evil echelons of chicken bolts). I only jumped in to this rerun episode because Dwayner informed me at the bar last evening that Rumor had accused me of being logical and cordial in these discussions. Peter (yawn), Dick Cilley told me that he's never placed a protection bolt, and he spent many hours at camp in Joshua Tree one night about ten years ago dressing down bolt-clippin' assholes like you.

Bullshit, Private Pile. They are equivalent. And while we're at it, allow me to equate rap bolting with sward swallowing......ooops, I mean, aid climbing. That's right. Yes, yes! Rap bolting = aid climbing. Both require equivalent amounts of athletic ability (very little) and subatomic quantities of Courage....oh shit, was that an upper-case "C"? Aid climbing = crude engineering (in the words of Dick Cilley) = sport climbing (which doesn't even start from the bottom of the cliff..technically, it ain't climbing).

And let's not forget this guy, for his pioneering techniques in urine recycling and thermal-efficient man spooning.