pope

Will the coward who banned Dwayner please step forward!

Here's something that Dwayner sent me that I'm sure he wouldn't mind me passing along: Dude: Another article from High Country News. This one is about those bolted caves in Oregon. Complaining vociferously about this matter is what got me finally banned. Check it out: HOTLINE - April 1, 2002 Forest Service gives climbers the slip by Ted Katauskas OREGON Rock climbers are clinging a bit more tenaciously to crags on federal lands now that the U.S. Forest Service has all but outlawed climbing at a network of caves outside of Bend, Ore. To protect dwindling populations of bats and to preserve the caves, which are sacred to the Confederated Tribes of the Warm Springs, in late February the Deschutes National Forest banned the installation and use of climbing bolts. It also created a $200 fine if climbers are found using, or even possessing, magnesium carbonate, a chalk-like hand-drying agent that permanently stains the dark porous volcanic rock. "Not only is this outrageous, its unconstitutional," says Shawn Tierney, a spokesperson for the Boulder, Colo.-based Access Fund, which unsuccessfully appealed the decision. "One of our primary objections is that this arbitrary ban could be used to justify similar actions around the country. Its a very dangerous precedent." Others say climbers dont deserve to use the area: They bolted 160 climbing anchors over one 400-square-foot area of rock near the mouth of the most popular cave, and coated parts of the caves ceiling and walls with layers of magnesium carbonate, covering prehistoric Native American pictographs. "When I first saw what these guys had done, I was so upset that I couldnt sleep for a week," says Portland cave conservationist Larry King, who removed the last of the bolts days after the ban was enacted. "They went in there without asking permission, without doing any environmental or archaeological assessments, and turned these caves into their own personal climbing gyms." Here's the funny part from above: "Not only is this outrageous, its unconstitutional," says Shawn Tierney, a spokesperson for the Boulder, Colo.-based Access Fund, which unsuccessfully appealed the decision. "One of our primary objections is that this ARBITRARY BAN could be used to justify similar actions around the country. Its a very dangerous precedent." Ain't that funny. Dwayner (and archaeologist AND climber was arbitrarily banned by cc.com for complaining about climbers abusing that cave and the Access Fund is complaining about being arbitrarily banned. ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc. Perhaps, worthy of bringing to public attention, eh velvet roadhog? - Dwayner

So, should I infer that high-impact recreational use is acceptable provided that we can find an example of even greater negative impact? Will that be how Pete Rose makes it into the Hall of Fame? It's OK 'casue everybody's doing it?

Your kind of humor provides one of the only remaining reasons I continue to dignify these boards with my presence.

Yeah buddy. The Colts just picked apart a great team today. They're going all the way. The play-off games have been pretty dramatic this year, really fun to watch. And I don't watch a lot of football.

Several years ago, I found a place that sold T-nuts by the box for $6. They are tedious to install because they're held in place with three tiny screws, but they'll never fall out behind the wall.

Here's a link to an article with which a member of the editorial staff of R&I seems to disagree. Seems right on to me: Clean Up Your Act

First Dwayner, now Pope is gone. I looked up "arbitary" in the dictionary last night. This is what I read: The turning of an ice condition report into an anti-bolt thread last week was a bit like the cc.com of a couple years ago. Please do not continue to turn threads into antibolt arguments. Since becoming a moderator I have not suggested banning anyone. I had nothing to do with the banning of Dwayner and do not wish to press for the banning of "pope" or some related avatar; however, if you continue to force threads into an anti-bolt discourses I will do so. You can always start a new thread in the general board or in spray if you need to chat about bolts. Cheers, PP I reminded Peter that Pope was only one participant in a recent 29-page thread that evolved into a bolting discussion. I reminded him that the discussion started when a number of climbers decided to pick just one point from the five points I had outlined about how our sport had been impacted by larger numbers. Apparently, climbers here wanted to talk about bolts more than I did. Our moderators aren't going to allow this sort of discussion any more, and I think we know why. LAME! And then, about two hours after I read my formal warning from Peter, Pope is banned from contributing and sending private messages. Welcome, oh Dark Ages.

Grounds for banning? That would cut the cc.com traffic by a healthy fraction.

Your mystery man/woman is asking a question that is common to many of us. Just WHAT ARE THE STANDARDS FOR BANNING? When we study the behavior of those who are banned and those who are not, the logic applied in these considerations is imperceptible. Take for example an all-too-typical offering from one of our finest: Insults, threats, vulgarity, poor sentence structure.....and this wasn't even posted in "SPRAY". I'm very curious to know, have standards been established for guiding the banning decisions, or is it as political as it seems? An associated question is also appropriate. When we register to use the features of this site and to contribute to the discussions, each of us agrees to conditions for participation. Is it possible to point to violations of this code which would seem to justify some of the recent bannings?

Do fish swim?

Hey Gang! Who wants to join me at the Rap Wall?

Hey! Turn down the high beams!

Oooooh weeeee!

Forget the grandpa...who's the bird? Yowsa!

I am embarassed to call myself a climber when the public associates a once noble tradition with this brand of horseshit.

An asshole is an asshole, no matter how small, no matter how large. Mister E, I'm personally embarassed for you. You call as your friend a guy who leaves a trail of trash in the mountains. These bolts are evidence of a cowardly ascent, nothing more, nothing less. Instead of advising him to minimize his impact and just top-rope his 40-ft project, you attempt to justify his actions by pointing out another, larger intrusion on the mountain landscape. "Shouldn't we worry about something else? Don't my buddy's transgressions pale in comparison to these chairlifts?" To your questions I would answer with a set of new questions: "Shouldn't we be concerned about both transgressions? Shouldn't a mountain climber hold himself to a higher ethical standard than a developer/profiteer?" A bigger evil on the right does not excuse a smaller evil on the left. Please, gentlemen, put on your thinking caps before you enter these discussions.

That assumption could also be in error. It could be that Pope can't pull down technical stuff.....OR IT COULD BE THAT HE DOESN'T FEEL THE NEED TO ANSWER TO THOSE WHO INCORRECTLY ASSUME THIS. IT COULD BE THAT POPE DOESN'T FEEL THE NEED TO GO SHOW-BOATIN' WITH HIS CLIMBING RESUME EVERY TIME SOME NOVICE CLIMBER QUESTIONS HIS ABILITIES. It is just possible that Pope has accomplished things in the mountains that Erik has never and will never climb. But I completely agree, Chuck, that no matter at what level one climbs, he should do it in good style and not leave a mess. Success in Patagonia, or having once belayed somebody who dated the ex-girlfriend of a guy who pink-pointed 5.13a....these factors do not imply the right to bolt whatever you want. Establishing bolted top-rope climbs in the mountains is weak. The better climber you are, the more obvious this should be.

I forgot to mention the condos and heated swimming pools and SUVs and diesel trucks! Bring your righteous religion and enlighten us as to why all of the above are OK, but bolts are the spawn on Satan. I'm curious, I really am. And remember, I am young and impressionable. Perhaps your sagacity can save me from these evil hordes. As for your pig, I'd shake the hand of the man who chopped it. Talk about visual impact! It was disturbing the activities of the other climbers! Lame asses. Another limp argument. Are you putting yourself in the same class as an area skiier or a snow machine user? Do you think its appropriate for a mountaineer to behave this way?

Nobody wants to hear it, and it is stupid to argue about it, I agree. But it is even more ridiculous that climbers are bolting a top-rope cliff in the mountains in the first place. There's absolutely no need for it and it reflects poorly on us. I saw the photos. What are we talking about, 40 feet of rock? And we need to bolt this because.....? Say what you will, but this activity deserves all of the ridicule we can heap on it.