pope

Based on the reaction of RuMr, AlpineK, Distel and the gang, I get the impression that chipping might just offend you. But I'm here to tell you that everything you've said to justify bolts lends itself perfectly to the justification of chipping. Spooky, isn't it? I don't want to talk about chipping, I just want you to look at bolting one more time and ask yourself, "Just what the Hell am I defending here?", followed by, "How valid can my arguments be if they perfectly transfer to the defense of something as dastardly as chipping?" Now I'm going hiking. Alpine, I'll get some Molly up for you later. Peace out my brothers.

If you had described today's sport climbing scene to climbers of the 70's, they'd have accused you of being Captain Hyperbole.

Forgive me. I had to work for a living today.

I'm not concerned about chipping, and I'm not a closet chipper. I just think it's time for sport climbing to evolve, and chipping seems like the future of your sport. Once you open your mind to it, I'm sure you'll agree. Remember, don't look back!

What.....are they the rock police? You're making my argument for me: every lame justification for sport climbing offered in this thread can be used to defend just about ANY rock alterations. Of course I'm getting confused. I just hope that when I show up with my hammer and chisel, your sport buddies down at Smith are as progressive and open-minded as you have continually encouraged me to be.

But you must also agree that "harming the environment" and "harming anybody else" have meanings that are very subjective. We continue to hear MattP protest against those "rock police" who want to impose their sense of aesthetics on everybody else. I suggest that bolt enthusiasts are imposing their lack of aesthetics on me. I honestly think I could climb the hardest 5.14 at Smith if I were to carve a line of buckets straight up it. I'll bet I could employ the exact line of reasoning coming from the other side in this thread to justify that line of buckets. "If you don't like it, climb some other place." "Don't impose your beliefs on me." "The damage caused by my actions are miniscule compared to other climbing practices." "Climbing must move forward. Don't look back." "Climbers have always altered the rock for their convenience." "There's room for every style. Sport, trad, alpine, hold chipping.....it's all good." "The Euros are chipping holds and they are like way cut up." "It's called having fun. Every hear of having fun?" "You should tolerate my line of carved buckets. It's not like there is a group of evil bucket carvers hiding in the bushes waiting to invade Smith Rock." "You guys who don't chip holds are just weak. You feel threatened by the technical competence of the hold chippers." "Sure chipping is altering the environment. But we've already altered Smith Rock. What's the big deal? I just look at it like area skiing." Oh, I almost forgot this one: "If you don't like my chopped out buckets, you can just ignore them and skip right past."

But you must also agree that "harming the environment" and "harming anybody else" have meanings that are very subjective. We continue to hear MattP protest against those "rock police" who want to impose their sense of aesthetics on everybody else. I suggest that bolt enthusiasts are imposing their lack of aesthetics on me. I honestly think I could climb the hardest 5.14 at Smith if I were to carve a line of buckets straight up it. I'll bet I could employ the exact line of reasoning coming from the other side in this thread to justify that line of buckets. "If you don't like it, climb some other place." "Don't impose your beliefs on me." "The damage caused by my actions are miniscule compared to other climbing practices." "Climbing must move forward. Don't look back." "Climbers have always altered the rock for their convenience." "There's room for every style. Sport, trad, alpine, hold chipping.....it's all good." "The Euros are chipping holds and they are like way cut up." "It's called having fun. Every hear of having fun?" "You should tolerate my line of carved buckets. It's not like there is a group of evil bucket carvers hiding in the bushes waiting to invade Smith Rock." "You guys who don't chip holds are just weak. You feel threatened by the technical competence of the hold chippers." "Sure chipping is altering the environment. But we've already altered Smith Rock. What's the big deal? I just look at it like area skiing."

Did somebody say fun?

In classic mountaineering, the two are inseparable.

Too many rap bolted sport routes are low adventure low challenge?? HAHAHA my friend you have not been climbing enough sport! either that or you are climbing 5.14. That statement cannot be taken seriously be anyone unless you are climbing sport routes all over the world and all grades, from 5.5 to 5.15. Poor argument Come on Luke...Look at realization, that thing is a low adventure bolt trail...absolutely positively has nothing going for it.... You've provided an example of a high-challenge, high-adventure sport route I assume (never heard of that climb but...oh well). Now, I would like to present you with an example of a TYPICAL SPORT CLIMB and then you can tell me how much challenge/adventure our subjects are having:

Parade of clowns (vertical) Horizontal

avoidin sponsibility. blamin da tools. weak dude. That was an error. The 1/2" bolt was used near Carnival Crack.

Oh...OK. I have a problem with logging at the base of a cliff. I should have put an equal effort into protesting this commong practice, since we see so much of this. So climbing destroys....what kind of plant life? Lichen? Moss? Do we have any problem getting moss to grow back on an Index climb that hasn't been climbed in a season? My biggest gripe is certainly with bolts. How many times have I said that they don't kill salmon, that my protest is motivated by aesthetic concerns, rather than environmental concerns? Bolts are visual pollution. They look really alien, far more alien than a little rock scar that results from a flake popping off under a climber's foot, and they are quite permanent. Outside of aesthetics, there is the issue of challenge reduction, of the tendency of sport climbers to avoid pioneering thought-provoking, adventurous lines (witness the Exit 38 photos). You put all of this together, you weigh up the pros and cons, you ask whether we could have any fun without bolts, and then you just figure it out: bolts is evil. Let's put the brakes on this runaway train.

The Secret Dome climb would best be left as a top-rope, if it had started that way. I clipped on some wire brushes and a hand drill and just started climbing. The result is a fair climb, and the only true lead-established route there. The bolt by Carnival Crack was initially drilled on lead, but the bit I'd purchased didn't truly match the bolt size I had with me (not my fault). Because it was the only pro for the crux, and since if the bolt failed it would be really terrible, I decided to borrow a power drill and place a 1/2" bolt. A few people do establish routes on rap and do a nice job, and I've agreed with that point many times. But in general, too many rap-bolted routes turn out to be low-adventure, low challenge, unaesthetic bolt trails. If we were to agree that placing bolts should be done on the lead, and if we could get everybody on board, a crisis like what we witnessed in Vantage would never happen again.

Parade of clowns (vertical) Horizontal

And what is the nature of your passion for the little guys? Do you think they make the mountain look better, the way a string of lights aids a noble fir on Christmas Eve? Are you not able to find enough climbable rock without defiling the mountains with these indicators of cowardice? Do you think Molly's hot? Will Dwayner ever be allowed to post here again?

OK, time for a little Molly time.

I see a big difference. On a long climb which follows natural weaknesses, say a classic like DEB of SEWS, a few bolts to bypass a blank section are an unfortunate compromise which allow for an exhilerating experience. One would naturally prefer not to have to put a bolt trail in the middle of a climb like that, but in the case that it is necessary, I think it is far more acceptable than the sort of homogeneous, cookie-cutter sport climbs one sees on walls better suited to top-roping, like in Vantage. Secondly, I have to agree with Scott when he suggests that our behavior should set the example for recreational use of the mountains. I don't care whether or not you believe that the average climber in the "golden age" had a better developed sense of wilderness preservation (and I insist that they did). I'm simply promoting that as climber's we do a much better job of avoiding overbolting. We need an ethic that transcends generational differences and fads.

I'm only suggesting situations in which bolts are seemingly more acceptable. Let's contrast lead vs. rap placed bolts. When somebody places bolts on the lead, he is in the thick of it and drilling in order to save his own butt while actually leading. To the extent that he does a nice job and gets solid bolts at logical stances, I think these bolts (while still ugly and foreign) at least respresent a purer form of mountain climbing, where one attempts to meet the challenge of lead climbing. Greater skill and risk are required for success, and as a consequence, it seems obvious that if we were to play by these rules, far fewer dumbied down, overly bolted pitches would exist, and the pace at which the limited resource of unclimbed rock is developed would be greatly decreased, preserving challenges for many generations. Lead bolting, IMO, would greatly retard the pace of bolting and I think it would nearly eliminate the desire and ability of talentless, unskilled climbers to put up 8-bolt, 40-ft sport climbs at a rate of 5 a month or whatever. Lead bolting would allow for some face climbing to be developed, without the creation of a circus like you see in Vantage. Contrast this with the way rap bolting is practiced currently and I think lead bolting looks like a great alternative. The friggin' Huber brothers could be your role models in this capacity. Now let's talk about this route by Carnival Crack again. I've received a bunch of grief about it, and I understand this to some extent. Many bolt advocates who are irritated with my statements (or my attitude or whatever) are delighted to know that I placed a bolt on that climb. "If Pope is against bolting, and if he placed a bolt, then we can just dismiss everything he promotes since he is a hypocrite." I'm sorry, but you're going to have to think a little harder than that. I have said on many occasions that discrete, logical, responsible bolting is OK. A gear route that needs one bolt to protect a deadly face move (which happens to be the crux move) is an example of an acceptable bolt application. Now, if you want to argue this point, I'm willing to discuss it. That route is kind of fun, but I have no great emotional investment in it. If you have done it, and if you honestly think the single bolt on this climb is way out of line with what I've been promoting, try to convince me. You just might talk me into chopping it. Or, you can just carry on saying, "Pope is against every bolt. Pope placed a bolt. Pope is a hypocrite." You need to know that you're demonstrating your capacity for lazy thinking, but that's your right.

Quite obvious. Is they? Consider stopping off at the library on the way down to the gym, so that in your next post you'll be able to spell "hipocricy".

"We have a right to the resources just like any other user group..." Well, that depends on the extent to which you impact the cliff. Perhaps I would like to go down to Smith and dynamite that Chain Reaction climb, so that I could use the resulting gravel pile as chicken grit. Wouldn't that make me a user? Wouldn't I have the "same right as everybody else"?

As with the discussion of installing bolts, any discussion of removing them must recognize that there are a lot of tradeoffs here, and a lot of different climbing styles, and I think ChucK's prior point that the people engaged in these activities need to maintain some measure of humility is a good one. If you appoint yourself as the rock police, a BIG dosage of humility should come into play, in my view. I think you should add to your considerations: 6. Will the decision to not chop this route signal bolt enthusiasts that it is open season on this once traditional crag? 7. Will the fear of starting a bolt war ultimately result in sport climbers bolting anything and everything they can find?

The thing on Secret Dome is...I don't know....ten years old or so. I don't really think I ruined the place, given all of the completely bolt-dependent routes already on the dome. My variation used only two bolts, and I put the bolts in on the lead which, in my way of thinking, makes them the only legitimate bolts on the dome. It is ran-out and 5.11, which adds something to the monotone of 5.10 slab climbing one finds there. I'm happy to help you chop it if you're disgusted by it, and I hope you'll help me chop a few bolts while you're at it. I didn't bolt any cracks by Carnival Crack. I put up (with Scotty Hopkins, not Dave Bale) a crack route which uses one bolt for pro, right at the face climbing crux. This move is by far the hardest on the route. Without the bolt, the fall would probably be fatal. If you didn't recognize this, you probably haven't climbed the route. I could have easily climbed through. The 5.9+ grade is something I can handle with or without a bolt, but I thought that it would be responsible to have a solid bolt on that move. Please don't spread the rumor that I put up a sport climb in Leavenworth, or that I bolted next to a crack. It just isn't true. And MattP, when I make a mistake, I'll be the first to admit it; I don't need your help. The climb by Carnival Crack completely complies with what I have so many times outlined to be the reasonable and responsible application of bolts. Those of you who think it is ridiculous to say "every bolt is a crime" are absolutely correct, and I have never said that. I have pointed out that discrete bolting can add to the climbing experience without seriously compromising the aesthetics of a cliff. THE PROBLEM IS, TOO MANY CLIMBERS JUST DON'T HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT DISCRETE BOLTING IS ALL ABOUT.