pope

Back in the day we called them stirrups! And that reminds me of the rodeo hump.

I suspect your observartions are entirely too correct! My hardest, most technical on-sight....I can't even remember the name of the stupid thing. Clip, do a move. Clip, do a move. One of these I-90 feel good climbs. The same year, I did a climb two full number grades (that's 8 letter grades) easier in the City of Rocks, but it only had two or maybe three bolts. It was an old Jeff Lowe climb, and I remember everything....EVERYTHING about it. And the funny thing is, because I had to climb with such concentration, with such precision....because every move had to be measured and contemplated, then stored away in memory in case down climbing was required....I think the climb in Idaho was physically harder than the sport route at WWI. Thanks for the link, Chuck. One of my favorite books is Climb! by Bog Godfrey and Dudley Chelton. Colorado has a fascinating climbing history. I love to pick up that book on a rainy night, get a beer, and put on a little Jimmy Rogers.

Which can be difficult while you're trying to balance in a precarious stance. This kind of adventure isn't so popular with many of today's climbers, so they start at the top of the cliff and slide down a rope, stopping ever so often to drill the holes and set the bolts. They then go to the bottom of the cliff and begin climbing up. The shiny bolt hangers serve two purposes. Firstly, they mark the trail so that nonbody gets lost. Secondly, today's climber finds them to be kind of attractive, and so he is enticed into leaving the relative safety of having a bolt by his shoulders and into the bold frontier of climbing until that same bolt is by his knees. At that point, he gets to clip the next bolt at helmet level and he may decide to lean back on the rope for a little rest while he admires that shiny little beauty. I hope this has helped.

Pretty awesome to see a controversial issue run its course without moderators jumping in to delete the insults (and even the opinions with which they happen to disagree). This thread has it all: thoughtful discussion, juvenile insults, obscene language, polite discourse, hyperbolic distortion of the truth, photos of Molly Ringwald.....all of the elements that never would have survived in a heavily edited forum. If this thing had been started in the New Rock Climbing Forum, it never would have left the ground. For the moment (and I don't know if it will last), it seems like the good old days of CC.com are back. Nobody got their feelings hurt, and I managed to throw away hours of what could have been productive time. Awesome! And I for one put just as much effort into trying to understand the perspectives offered by others as I did trying to forward the principles in which I believe. Something to think about is this: exactly what sort of poor behavior did Dwayner display that was not displayed in this thread to the nth degree? Isn't it time to bring good ol' Dwayner back? I think we owe it to ourselves. To the truth! To free discourse! To our superb moderators for allowing this thread to go whichever way the wind blew! To the swift return of Dwayner! To Molly! To Pyramid's Snow Cap Ale!

If you are capable of 5.12 or better, you are prepared for the Bachar Yerian. If you can't climb those grades, you'll need more bolts. You can climb out of control, with more abandon and confidence, you can risk trying a move that you might not really be ready for. In short, you can be a physically weaker climber and climb a heavily bolted route for a given grade. Why use any pro at all then pope?? Why? Why do you get to decide how much is just enough??? THisiz a stupid stance... Now wait a minute, you're the guy always accusing me of being Captain Hyperbole!

If you are capable of 5.12 or better, you are prepared for the Bachar Yerian. If you can't climb those grades, you'll need more bolts. You can climb out of control, with more abandon and confidence, you can risk trying a move that you might not really be ready for. In short, you can be a physically weaker climber and climb a heavily bolted route for a given grade.

I could red point the Bachar Yerian with about 20 bolts on which to pull and cheat and rehearse while I "prepare to send". In its current condition, you need to have 5.12 ability to scale this monument to honest climbing. You see, adding bolts brings a climb physically within the realm of mediocre climbers.

Based on the reaction of RuMr, AlpineK, Distel and the gang, I get the impression that chipping might just offend you. But I'm here to tell you that everything you've said to justify bolts lends itself perfectly to the justification of chipping. Spooky, isn't it? I don't want to talk about chipping, I just want you to look at bolting one more time and ask yourself, "Just what the Hell am I defending here?", followed by, "How valid can my arguments be if they perfectly transfer to the defense of something as dastardly as chipping?" Now I'm going hiking. Alpine, I'll get some Molly up for you later. Peace out my brothers.

If you had described today's sport climbing scene to climbers of the 70's, they'd have accused you of being Captain Hyperbole.

Forgive me. I had to work for a living today.

I'm not concerned about chipping, and I'm not a closet chipper. I just think it's time for sport climbing to evolve, and chipping seems like the future of your sport. Once you open your mind to it, I'm sure you'll agree. Remember, don't look back!

What.....are they the rock police? You're making my argument for me: every lame justification for sport climbing offered in this thread can be used to defend just about ANY rock alterations. Of course I'm getting confused. I just hope that when I show up with my hammer and chisel, your sport buddies down at Smith are as progressive and open-minded as you have continually encouraged me to be.

But you must also agree that "harming the environment" and "harming anybody else" have meanings that are very subjective. We continue to hear MattP protest against those "rock police" who want to impose their sense of aesthetics on everybody else. I suggest that bolt enthusiasts are imposing their lack of aesthetics on me. I honestly think I could climb the hardest 5.14 at Smith if I were to carve a line of buckets straight up it. I'll bet I could employ the exact line of reasoning coming from the other side in this thread to justify that line of buckets. "If you don't like it, climb some other place." "Don't impose your beliefs on me." "The damage caused by my actions are miniscule compared to other climbing practices." "Climbing must move forward. Don't look back." "Climbers have always altered the rock for their convenience." "There's room for every style. Sport, trad, alpine, hold chipping.....it's all good." "The Euros are chipping holds and they are like way cut up." "It's called having fun. Every hear of having fun?" "You should tolerate my line of carved buckets. It's not like there is a group of evil bucket carvers hiding in the bushes waiting to invade Smith Rock." "You guys who don't chip holds are just weak. You feel threatened by the technical competence of the hold chippers." "Sure chipping is altering the environment. But we've already altered Smith Rock. What's the big deal? I just look at it like area skiing." Oh, I almost forgot this one: "If you don't like my chopped out buckets, you can just ignore them and skip right past."

But you must also agree that "harming the environment" and "harming anybody else" have meanings that are very subjective. We continue to hear MattP protest against those "rock police" who want to impose their sense of aesthetics on everybody else. I suggest that bolt enthusiasts are imposing their lack of aesthetics on me. I honestly think I could climb the hardest 5.14 at Smith if I were to carve a line of buckets straight up it. I'll bet I could employ the exact line of reasoning coming from the other side in this thread to justify that line of buckets. "If you don't like it, climb some other place." "Don't impose your beliefs on me." "The damage caused by my actions are miniscule compared to other climbing practices." "Climbing must move forward. Don't look back." "Climbers have always altered the rock for their convenience." "There's room for every style. Sport, trad, alpine, hold chipping.....it's all good." "The Euros are chipping holds and they are like way cut up." "It's called having fun. Every hear of having fun?" "You should tolerate my line of carved buckets. It's not like there is a group of evil bucket carvers hiding in the bushes waiting to invade Smith Rock." "You guys who don't chip holds are just weak. You feel threatened by the technical competence of the hold chippers." "Sure chipping is altering the environment. But we've already altered Smith Rock. What's the big deal? I just look at it like area skiing."

Did somebody say fun?

In classic mountaineering, the two are inseparable.

Too many rap bolted sport routes are low adventure low challenge?? HAHAHA my friend you have not been climbing enough sport! either that or you are climbing 5.14. That statement cannot be taken seriously be anyone unless you are climbing sport routes all over the world and all grades, from 5.5 to 5.15. Poor argument Come on Luke...Look at realization, that thing is a low adventure bolt trail...absolutely positively has nothing going for it.... You've provided an example of a high-challenge, high-adventure sport route I assume (never heard of that climb but...oh well). Now, I would like to present you with an example of a TYPICAL SPORT CLIMB and then you can tell me how much challenge/adventure our subjects are having:

Parade of clowns (vertical) Horizontal

avoidin sponsibility. blamin da tools. weak dude. That was an error. The 1/2" bolt was used near Carnival Crack.

Oh...OK. I have a problem with logging at the base of a cliff. I should have put an equal effort into protesting this commong practice, since we see so much of this. So climbing destroys....what kind of plant life? Lichen? Moss? Do we have any problem getting moss to grow back on an Index climb that hasn't been climbed in a season? My biggest gripe is certainly with bolts. How many times have I said that they don't kill salmon, that my protest is motivated by aesthetic concerns, rather than environmental concerns? Bolts are visual pollution. They look really alien, far more alien than a little rock scar that results from a flake popping off under a climber's foot, and they are quite permanent. Outside of aesthetics, there is the issue of challenge reduction, of the tendency of sport climbers to avoid pioneering thought-provoking, adventurous lines (witness the Exit 38 photos). You put all of this together, you weigh up the pros and cons, you ask whether we could have any fun without bolts, and then you just figure it out: bolts is evil. Let's put the brakes on this runaway train.

The Secret Dome climb would best be left as a top-rope, if it had started that way. I clipped on some wire brushes and a hand drill and just started climbing. The result is a fair climb, and the only true lead-established route there. The bolt by Carnival Crack was initially drilled on lead, but the bit I'd purchased didn't truly match the bolt size I had with me (not my fault). Because it was the only pro for the crux, and since if the bolt failed it would be really terrible, I decided to borrow a power drill and place a 1/2" bolt. A few people do establish routes on rap and do a nice job, and I've agreed with that point many times. But in general, too many rap-bolted routes turn out to be low-adventure, low challenge, unaesthetic bolt trails. If we were to agree that placing bolts should be done on the lead, and if we could get everybody on board, a crisis like what we witnessed in Vantage would never happen again.

Parade of clowns (vertical) Horizontal

And what is the nature of your passion for the little guys? Do you think they make the mountain look better, the way a string of lights aids a noble fir on Christmas Eve? Are you not able to find enough climbable rock without defiling the mountains with these indicators of cowardice? Do you think Molly's hot? Will Dwayner ever be allowed to post here again?

OK, time for a little Molly time.